Education - the pride and the anger

[Dutch Uncle]

My daughter has just received her University results and I could not be more proud. She has a first, a high first even, in English at Oxford. She was second in the University in her specialism (Medieval), and she has won a prestigious (although monetarily modest) prize.

Now the anger. Despite being the second best student at the best University in the Country for her subject, the second best University in the world according to the Times Higher Education ranking, she is unable to get funding for a Masters. It seems Humanities subjects have received a drastic cut at the Masters level - indeed there were only 10 open funded places for about 1000 Masters places at Oxford University this year - there were some more for students from families in poverty. It seems there is still plenty of funding for PhD level, and plenty of funding for Scientific subjects at both Masters and PhD level.

My daughter does not qualify for any loan - we/she were non resident in the UK when she started her Bachelors course, although we are now back in the UK. The only way is for the bank of Mum and Dad to see if we can extend the mortgage to pay her through one year and hope she can get funding for the PhD - we certainly can't cover that.

By having plenty of funding at PhD level and virtually none at Masters level ensures that only the very rich or very poor get to pursue their studies. My daughter has a real passion as well as talent, and her dedication to study was quite remarkable - she worked every single 'vacation' over the last 3 years. By the way Oxford University made her sign a contract allowing no term time paid employment and no more than 4 weeks paid employment during the summer, so working to pay her way through is not an option.   

As a scientist myself I can see why scientific research budgets have fared much better than humanities, but surely the balance is wrong when probably the second best student in the country cannot get Masters funding (by the way the top student decided not to apply for a Masters course).     

Welcome to the real world you say. Well I feel lucky in that we will probably be able to see her through to at least having a chance of PhD funding. But my goodness have we broken a brilliant University system over the last 40 years.   

[River Don]

Dutch,

I can tell you right now, if you were to start some sort of fund on here I would contribute.

[Dagenham Rover]

I've just pulled one bit out of your post DU

 By the way Oxford University made her sign a contract allowing no term time paid employment and no more than 4 weeks paid employment during the summer,

Thereby ensuring ordinary "plebs"   (expression DU not aimed at you or your daughter)  can't really afford to go to Oxford

[River Don]

Oxbridge isn't part of the British educational system anymore.

They are successful global brands. Like Harvard, Princeton and Berkeley.

They are open to the best... But being the best is easier if you happen to be wealthy.

[Copps is Magic]

Hi Dutch,

I am currently coming towards the end of my PhD. I am (luckily) an ESRC funded student in the social sciences (I really enjoy spending UK tax payers money) at a London university. I paid for my masters through a combination of a small award I received and the rest through a career development loan. It worked out alright for me in the end as I found supervisors who basically guided me through the application for a PhD.

I presume when you say she is not eligible for a loan you mean a career development loan?

My question would be this. Why does she want to do a masters? If it is simply for personal interest or personal development then my advice would be forget about it and pursue something different. If it is to enhance her employment chances then, again, I would say forget about it. The only two reasons, IMO, for someone to do a masters in today's university system is for a very specific job/career path or as a progression to a PhD.

Does she want to do a PhD? If so, forget about the masters per se and find a supervisor(s) in her area who's willing to put the time and effort in to write an application for funding (and hopefully advise on awards to get through the masters). Don't go through official application systems, contact professors directly - most are killing for motivated students who have gone through the British system.

Thirdly, Oxbridge, in most fields, means absolutely nothing at postgraduate level. It's all about finding an institution that has researcher/research capabilities in your respective fields. Broaden your horizons to other Unis in the UK and Europe.

Unfortunately, the Masters' level education system at the moment is one big money making machine. It's designed to attract foreign students who pay stupid amounts of money to get a British university name on their CV. Staff numbers of being cut and the quality of courses is going down while universities are constructing new buildings  and acquiring stupid amounts of property.

I can't really say the class system is noticeable at postgraduate level when talking about domestic students. I grew up on a council estate and managed to get through the system.

If you need any help Dutch, let me know.

[ian1980]

Whilst it would be a good 'bragging' point to have a masters/PhD, my view is that generally it's a bit of a waste of time and creates large debts so people are starting out on the back foot. So many people I see who have gone through higher education only to find they can't get a job or get one they don't want, which has nothing to do with their studies.

Far better I think to get into the working world early, learn a trade or start your own business building those important business and life skills along the way.

Having said that though, best of luck Dutch to you and your daughter.

[Copps is Magic]

Whilst it would be a good 'bragging' point to have a masters/PhD, my view is that generally it's a bit of a waste of time and creates large debts so people are starting out on the back foot. So many people I see who have gone through higher education only to find they can't get a job or get one they don't want, which has nothing to do with their studies.

Far better I think to get into the working world early, learn a trade or start your own business building those important business and life skills along the way.

Having said that though, best of luck Dutch to you and your daughter.

While I do agree with your point to an extent, Masters' and PhDs are two completely different things. Next to no people enter a PhD without some degree of funding - so they are generally not accumulating debt. Even at Master's level I would suggest close to half of students have some degree of funding.

As I said in my previous post, there are certain career paths where a Masters' is a prerequisite but if she is not interested in one of these then there is no logic to doing a Masters'. If she wants to get into academia then having a PhD is nearly always required. I have also worked as an intern at the Welsh Government and was told to get a job as a civil servant there you increasingly need a PhD.

As for bragging, let me tell you, most PhD students will avoid talking about what they are doing.

[Dutch Uncle]

Many thanks all for the comments above. I have calmed down a little today, but my main beef is not just because of my daughter - I feel very lucky that with some belt-tightening we can at least get her through one year and see if she can then win the supposed more plentiful PhD funding. I am sad to see the UK University system of 40 years ago being destroyed.  IMHO too much has been spent on creating more university places than are really required and more importantly far too little spent on vocational education and training.     

River Don - I am very touched by your comment but IMHO any funding raised on this board should definitely be either for DRFC or a DRFC related charity like the Louis Sharp fund.

Daggers - not sure I agree with you. I was fortunate to go to Oxford University 45 years ago funded by a Doncaster Local authority grant with my father (a teacher) paying a contribution. I received Science Research Council funding for my own Masters. In those days there were a very small minority of very rich people that I hardly ever saw, and a large number (I reckoned about 50%) of northern (or other regional) Grammar School oiks like me. Since then Oxford has continually and repeatedly launched campaigns to attract students from the state school sector, but never at the cost of lowering academic standards. Through my daughter I have the feeling that the 50% state sector entrants of my day is now nearer 60-70%. Private schools are still over-represented of course, but there is a clear majority of students from non rich backgrounds, and of course like all students they are saddled with debt when they leave. The contract signed was to ensure that all vacation assignments can be fully performed, and failure means risking being thrown out. I can clearly attest that the academic pressure on Oxford students now is significantly more than in my day, and I reckon  this is down to the official (Norrington) table comparing colleges' academic results - b***dy league tables and education!

Copps/Ian - thank you for your very interesting posts.  My daughter is desperate to study for a PhD (the Masters is only a necessary stepping stone) and she is in constant contact with the right teachers in the History and English departments. Her Masters proposal is a sort of medieval multi-media (my phrase) by researching and comparing tales, concepts and styles of Old English manuscripts with the stories depicted in stained glass windows of the time. Her supervisors are very enthusiastic about it, say there is little work already done in this area, and say it is also a clear and worthy PhD area of research. They are also world experts in the field and with the exception of one person at Cambridge (who also offered my daughter an unfunded Masters place) they are the very best she could have anywhere for Medieval English. They also said she was unlikely to gain one of the 10 funded Masters positions, but that PhD funding would be much more likely. How many promising students might have to give up at the Masters level through lack of funding, and only those fortunate to afford it (like my daughter I have to say), or those from poverty backgrounds where there are quite a few (certainly more than the 10 open to everyone) extra places available. It is people in the financial middle that are getting squeezed yet again.         

For what it is worth my own Masters in Mathematics directly led to a job in Operations Research for a large  International Organisation - I ended up working well over 30 years for them. 

Sorry that was a bit long folks.

[Donny Dub]

Congratulations to your high achieving daughter,  I wish her well for her future.
Why not advise her to complete her PhD and skip the Masters as Copps suggests?  She'll probably find employment for the college whilst doing it too.
On from the point Ian makes, I have come across a number of people with PhDs that have been unable to find employment in their chosen field anywhere and are very frustrated with life.
Good luck.

[Dutch Uncle]

Many thanks Donny Dub, and the pride we feel at her achievement is enormous. Unfortunately Oxford will not allow her to take a 2 year PhD without a 1 year Masters first. She is in constant contact with her college tutors has been well advised along the away.  But as for career options, well that is a whole different problem!

By the way do you ever venture north of the border Donny Dub? We are taking a short break down in Malahide soon. 

[Donny Dub]

I was in Strangford just today as a matter of fact Dutch and I'm often in Armagh.
I'd like to meet you in Malahide if you wish, please pm me your details and I'll let you have my phone number too.
Kind regards.

[IC1967]

I for one do not think that funds should be available to students to study such an obscure subject at Masters or PhD level. There are limited funds to go around so the money should be used to best advantage for what a prosperous economy needs.

By all means let her do as she wants but it should not be at the expense of the taxpayer.

[not on facebook]

Out Here students take up Loans Willy nilly ,but as soon as they start earning a Wage monthly repayments kick in .

Everyone who is legal or from birth   has  a personal number ,which
Is the date Of Your birth 030814***** Followed by 5digits

This number is Your ID and Follows you everywhere.you Cant open a bank account without said personal number,buy a phone or car or house ,Get a job.

[Sandy Lane]

Congratulations to your daughter, and well done to her!  Yes, sadly it seems merit scholarships for arts and humanities are on the wane here in the US as well, and have been for a very long time.

But I think your daughter should do what she loves and is good at, so hopefully the bank of Mom And Dad can help.  I know we worked very hard to put our kids through uni and grad schools.  I'm also very proud of my kids and for their hard work as well. They had to work while attending schools, but it helped them learn time management in addition to, literally, the true value of an education.  Plus they didn't have time to party as much, so it was all good!  Haha.

One of my friend's sons is pursuing a phD in Middle English and is writing his doctorate thesis on Tolkien.  He works as a teaching assistant at the Uni of Maryland, so gets paid for teaching undergrads while getting his own doctorate level courses free.  Did your daughter ever look into this kind of arrangement over there or in the US?  I'm sure her credentials would make her a very attractive candidate at many universities. But as you say, there must be a masters degree first -here as well.

Anyway, again congrats to her and hope things work out, but I'm sure they will!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Out Here students take up Loans Willy nilly ,but as soon as they start earning a Wage monthly repayments kick in .

Everyone who is legal or from birth   has  a personal number ,which
Is the date Of Your birth 030814***** Followed by 5digits

This number is Your ID and Follows you everywhere.you Cant open a bank account without said personal number,buy a phone or car or house ,Get a job.

It's not different here, I have over 30k of student loan debt at the minute (I pay it back effectively as an extra tax).  It's annoying to see it leave my salary every month granted, but it's my contribution to the education that got me this job, can't complain about that.

[IC1967]

Congratulations to your daughter, and well done to her!  Yes, sadly it seems merit scholarships for arts and humanities are on the wane here in the US as well, and have been for a very long time.

Quite right too. Arts and humanities aren't proper subjects. I'd much rather useful subjects like science and engineering were prioritised.

[IDM]

Congratulations to your daughter, and well done to her!  Yes, sadly it seems merit scholarships for arts and humanities are on the wane here in the US as well, and have been for a very long time.

Quite right too. Arts and humanities aren't proper subjects. I'd much rather useful subjects like science and engineering were prioritised.

Utter b*llocks.

For a start, getting a degree/masters/PHD shows a depth of learning and understanding, an ability to write reports, make presentations, time management etc that is relevant to any further employment regardless of the subject studied.  To an employer it is perhaps more about the skills and thinking ability more than the subject.

And what is wrong with having a bit of culture around to enhance our knowledge of the world around us and what has happened in the past?  And who do we learn about such things from?  From folks who have studied before in those areas!! 

My degree is in engineering, so I am not from a humanities subject background but do understand their value.

[IC1967]

Sorry I have to disagree. Humanities and arts degrees are virtually worthless in our fast moving and changing economy. Instead of spending years with their heads stuck in books, it would be far better if our young and brightest students entered the world of work with a useful degree.

The economy needs them. The last thing the taxpayer needs is to keep on funding these 'luxury' degrees.

[RedJ]

You looking forward to Yeovil Mick?

[Dutch Uncle]

IDM - many thanks for your comments - it is a shame that our most prominent WUM has chosen to add his contributions to this thread.

As a scientist myself I have no trouble that the lion's share of postgraduate funding should be in scientific subjects. But a civilised society also needs the humanities, not only for judges, translators/interpreters, economists, musicians, writers, etc but also those historians, archaeologists and old language experts to help us understand and learn from the past.

My beef over funding is not that scientists have too much, but rather that in this case the available humanities funding is clearly wrongly split between the compulsory Masters and follow-on D.Phil. (BTW this may be only in Oxford, although it does happen to be regarded as the best University in the country and perhaps the world for Humanities). Having funding open to competition for everyone for only 10 places out of about 1000 Humanities Masters places per year means only rich (or poor who have other funding options) can proceed to the D.Phil level where there is much more funding.  My daughter is one of the lucky ones, but how many very bright and passionate students from the squeezed middle income families just give up. More of the D.Phil funding needs to be given out at the Masters level. My daughter's tutors would also seem to think this way.     

Sandy - your reference to Tolkien is interesting. I was fortunate to get to know the wonderful man that was Prof Tolkien when I was at Merton College 45 years ago (long story). He was retired and had been offered accommodation in college for the rest of his life after his wife died. Unfortunately this turned out to be for only about 2 years. He was officially an Emeritus Fellow, and, typically self-effacing, his own words on this were "'Emeritus' - from the Latin 'e' meaning out of it and 'meritus' meaning deservedly so!"

His work in Old English is currently very popular with Oxford students, and my daughter bought, among other things, a deluxe copy of LoTR with her Prize (Book tokens), which happens to be exactly what I did 42 years ago - except I got my copy signed!

[Mike_F]

By 'eck, that must be worth a few bob if you've still got it!

[IC1967]

PhDs are a waste of time for the majority of students. On average a PhD only slightly increases your earning potential to a Masters degree. For this you have to give up 3 to 5 years of your life. Not worth it.

If you want to do it then pay for it yourself. There is also the huge drop out rate to consider.

[Iberian Red]

Can anyone point me in the right direction for a PhD in tupperware selling?

[GazLaz]

Taking 3 years extra out to study is surly costing a graduate about £75k in earning potential plus the cost of the course etc. that's plenty when you think about it like that.

[Jenny]

Depends if it is funded Gaz.

One of my friends has recently completed a PHD at Cambridge in plant sciences. Her PHD was funded and she got a reasonable tax free 'salary' for doing it over the course of 3 years. It has increased her earning potential and she has earnt money whilst doing it.

[IC1967]

Right. I'll say what the majority of readers of this forum are thinking. Why on Earth should the taxpayer be expected to pay for a masters or phD in a subject that involves reading ancient manuscripts and relating their meaning to windows? What benefit does this provide to the economy? What benefit does it provide to the person doing the studying? I'll tell you. Not a lot.

This time and money should be put to far better use. Just in case anyone has forgotten we are having to borrow this money to pay for such frivolities. The last time I checked every household in the country is having to find over £2k per year just to pay the interest on what we already owe. This figure is rising every year.

So get a grip and come into the real world. Such areas of study are a luxury and should be fully funded by the person that wants to waste their time doing it.

[Dutch Uncle]

IC - would you sell the British Museum and convert it into appartments or business premises? That would certainly raise money for the economy.

If you think there is no value in having a museum this might be an option, but many might disagree with you.

Also the Government might start charging an entrance fee if they felt the Museum was of no value in itself.

[IDM]

Right. I'll say what the majority of readers of this forum are thinking. Why on Earth should the taxpayer be expected to pay for a masters or phD in a subject that involves reading ancient manuscripts and relating their meaning to windows? What benefit does this provide to the economy? What benefit does it provide to the person doing the studying? I'll tell you. Not a lot.

This time and money should be put to far better use. Just in case anyone has forgotten we are having to borrow this money to pay for such frivolities. The last time I checked every household in the country is having to find over £2k per year just to pay the interest on what we already owe. This figure is rising every year.

So get a grip and come into the real world. Such areas of study are a luxury and should be fully funded by the person that wants to waste their time doing it.

Majority?  My arse!  If the majority feel so strongly about this they will post for themselves thankyouverymuch.

As to your point, you would expect that the individual receiving such funding to study would directly pay that back via income tax when they are working at a higher level of earnings because of their education.  Also, if they work as teachers or lecturers or TV presenters etc they then inspire others to get better qualifications to themselves earn more money and pay taxes, so again, indirectly, the initial investment in funding gets repaid.

I don't know why I bother, you are so blinkered you'll not listen.  As to claiming to represent the majority, do one!

[IC1967]

The British Museum pulls in tourists and is therefore a national asset. Of course there should be an entrance fee. It is ludicrous that it is 'free'. Of course it's not free because the taxpayer pays for it's upkeep. 

Try going to Paris and visiting their museums for free.

[IC1967]

Majority?  My arse!  If the majority feel so strongly about this they will post for themselves thankyouverymuch.

No they won't. I am the voice of reason no matter how much it upsets the politically correct brigade. People on this forum don't express their true views because they are intimidated by the leftie bias that is prevalent around here.

Good job there are thick skinned people around like me to restore balance to a debate.