UKIP conference at the racecourse

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Ouch!

And yet, Labour are STILL in comfortable majority territory in the polls, like they have been for nearly 4 years now.

[IC1967]

A word to any Ex-Labour supporters who are thinking of voting UKIP.

It is perfectly possible that UKIP will hold the balance of power next year. UKIP sell themselves to people who don't think deeply about issues. They sell themselves as a party that ONLY cares about Europe and immigration, and who exist only to sort that out.

It's bullshit.

They have a long-term aim to drive politics in this country way over to the Right. They want to do this by forcing the Tory party to become more right wing.

UKIP's strategy was there for everyone to see in their previous manifesto. Their long term aim is to reduce every aspect of state funding (railways, education, NHS, etc etc) and to privatise the lot. Except defence spending, which they would massively increase.

You'll not hear much from them about this long term aim in 2015. That's because Farage is a very clever politician. He knows that if they say what they REALLY want society to look like, they'll not get 2% support. So he's playing a long game. He wants MPs in place in 2015. Maybe 2. Maybe 5. He wants to gain credibility and, ideally, he wants a coalition with the Tories where he can slowly pull the Tories further to the right.

Farage reminds me of Alec Salmond. The SNP used to be a bunch of fruitcakes with pie in the sky policies. Salmond shared their long term aspirations, but knew that they had to tone down the rhetoric if they were going to convince people. He did that spectacularly well and made the SNP so credible that they damn nearly pulled off the most dangerous initiative for Britain in the past 100 years.

Like Samond, Farage is presenting a face that says "I'm on your side. And I'm not scary."

But he is. UKIP's ideal society would be the very antithesis of what most people in South Yorkshire want, and most people in the UK want. So they won't talk about that. But when they've got your support, that's what they'll be wanting to impose on us.

Farage said the biggest lie of his career yesterday. He said "If you vote UKIP, you'll get UKIP". Utter bullshit. If you vote UKIP, you're voting for a coalition between Farage and a Tory party that will lurch to the right in response. It'll make Thatcherism look like a left wing Govt.

Think about it.

BST says  'It is perfectly possible that UKIP will hold the balance of power next year'. I agree. However what BST fails to say is that it is extremely unlikely. Realistically they'll get 2 MPs. I don't call that the balance of power. So just ignore BST's scaremongering. It is a tactic that lefties seem to employ whenever they know they are losing the argument.

The reality is that a vote for UKIP is not a vote for the far right. It is a vote that sends a message to the establishment that we are fed up of being ruled by an out of touch elite, that we want control of our borders and that we want out of Europe. It's as simple as that.

Now BST you can't have it both ways. You criticise their previous manifesto and say it provides conclusive proof that UKIP are a far right party. You then go on to say that Farage is a very clever politician. You can't think he's that clever if he came up with such (in your opinion) an absurd manifesto. Again you miss the point of what UKIP is all about. I'll not explain it again but you do know he stated he never even read the manifesto. Of course you already know this but being as economical with the truth as ever you fail to point this out. Why didn't he even read it? Because he knew it would never be implemented so was not that important a document. He knows that the public see UKIP as just a party that wants out of Europe.

It's as simple as that.

By voting UKIP we also get the chance to give the established parties a good kicking. It's something we British enjoy doing. It's risk free as well. No need to worry about any UKIP policy you don't like as they will never get implemented. It's a free hit.

The only reason you should not vote UKIP is if misguidedly you want to stay in the EU. Otherwise get onboard and lets shake politics up.

[The Red Baron]

BST

I'm not sure they will be much longer. I thought Miliband's speech was a very poor effort. His activists will have lapped it up, of course, but it didn't seem to me to address a lot of concerns of the ordinary voter. Immigration for one.

Labour can't just rely on their core vote any more than the Tories can. His speech last week may well have turned off a lot of people who voted for Labour between 1997-2005 but don't consider themselves dyed-in-the-wool Labour.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Labour can absolutely rely on getting into power if they can mobilise their core vote. That might not be a fair outcome, but it is a facet of the electoral system that we have. If Labour get 35-36% in May, Miliband is in No10.

So it doesn't matter if he doesn't reach out to wavering Tory voters. He doesn't need to do. He needs to reassure the centre-left voters that he is on their side. That is Labour's entire strategy. And it has worked astonishingly well over the past 4 years.

If Labour end up in power 5 years after so spectacular a defeat in 2010, it will be unprecedented in the past 100 years. It generally takes parties at least 2 General Elections to bounce back from that sort of a defeat. It took Labour 14 years to recover from 1983. It took the Tories 13 years to recover from 1997. It was perfectly possible that Labour would have collapsed into inter-necine recriminations after 2010, especially given the bad blood between the Blairites and the Brownites. The fact that they haven't, and that they have stayed ahead in the polls for four years solid is a testament to Miliband's leadership, despite how he's portrayed.

[roversdude]

Anyone think that a war is a good vote catcher - seems to have worked over last few years
Also don't think Milliband has captured the public

[BillyStubbsTears]

Farage may well have said that he didn't read the 2010 manifesto. That, by definition, makes him either a liar or a fool. Because he wrote the executive summary to the document, and launched it at a press conference. Only a fool would put his name to anything without knowing what he was signing up to.

Now. Nothing that Farage has done recently makes me think he is a fool. So, by definition, he is a liar.

Interesting case study. Back in 2010, you got a clear look at the soul of UKIP. Proposals for massive tax cuts for millionaires (£200k a year tax cut for someone earning £1M per year) and the dismemberment of public services (other than defence, which they would massively increase spending on). Farage signed up to that. As I say, he wrote the f**king Executive Summary of the manifesto. When it's exposed as utterly barking mad and divorced from reality, what does he do? Pretends it never existed (the manifesto has been deleted from the UKIP website), lies about it then re-boots himself as a different person.

Remind you of anyone?

[coventryrover]

Bst

Like it or not politics is largely about personalities and rhetoric, depressingly.  That's why Labour won't mobilise their core vote because ed Miliband is such a poor leader.  Nothing stands out about Labour's policies to oppose Tory or hoop.  They do not provide an alternative way of thinking.

I used to be a Labour voter but at the moment they don't do it for me, the greens do

[IC1967]

Get in. Another Tory MP defects to UKIP. We are on the march.

[IC1967]

Farage may well have said that he didn't read the 2010 manifesto. That, by definition, makes him either a liar or a fool. Because he wrote the executive summary to the document, and launched it at a press conference. Only a fool would put his name to anything without knowing what he was signing up to.

Now. Nothing that Farage has done recently makes me think he is a fool. So, by definition, he is a liar.

Interesting case study. Back in 2010, you got a clear look at the soul of UKIP. Proposals for massive tax cuts for millionaires (£200k a year tax cut for someone earning £1M per year) and the dismemberment of public services (other than defence, which they would massively increase spending on). Farage signed up to that. As I say, he wrote the f***ing Executive Summary of the manifesto. When it's exposed as utterly barking mad and divorced from reality, what does he do? Pretends it never existed (the manifesto has been deleted from the UKIP website), lies about it then re-boots himself as a different person.

Remind you of anyone?

You won't have it will you. UKIP in 2010 were only bothered about pulling out of the EU. They paid lip service to a manifesto that no-one in the party took seriously. You try and take it seriously because you are all about scaremongering. Well we can all see through you. You are a leftie nutjob that will do or say anything that promotes socialism. Why don't you do us all a favour and go and live in France? That's a similar country to the UK in many respects. The main difference is that they have a socialist president that has tried to implement BST type policies. Not got them very far has it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

There's previous little interesting about you, but one thing is consistently fascinating. It's the way that you assume that everyone you talk to is thick and unable to put two and two together.

UKIP in 2010 were a single issue party? They paid lip service to a manifesto?

Their manifesto was nearly FIVE HUNDRED pages long! It included policies ranging from precisely what contracts to give to what UKIP supporting companies, to introducing laws to make taxi drivers and train drivers wear uniforms and have trains painted in traditional liveries.

Some lip-service!

As for Farage claiming that the manifesto was drivel and he didn't write it, and he didn't know what was in it, as I say, he's a liar or an idiot. Because he wrote the foreword to the f***ing rag.

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ge10/man/parties/UKIPManifesto2010.pdf

You make your mind up. Is Farage an idiot or a bare-faced liar. He has to be one or the other.

[jucyberry]

I don't like UKIP. I don't like the things they want and I certainly don't like the way they are making the little Englanders cream their pants at the thought of driving out any one whose ancestors were not slightly peeved at the arrival of William the bas**rd.. (that being the conquer not Hague )

It is so easy to say what those who moan loudest want. I don't trust them nothing specific, I just don't.

[IC1967]

BST. You need to get a grip. You are taking their 2010 manifesto far too seriously. It was a work of fiction and not put together with any rigour as the party knew it would never get implemented.

The fact is that Nige is a straight talking man of the people who is as honest as the day is long. When asked a question he gives a straight honest answer. You are on shaky ground trying to paint him as a liar. The one thing that makes UKIP politicians stand out from politicians of other parties is that they say what they think and answer questions directly and honestly. When was the last time you could say that about the vast majority of politicians from the Labour party? Have you forgotten what happened in Rotherham recently?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So which one is it about Farage?

Is he an idiot for writing a foreword to a document he hadn't read?

Or is he a liar for claiming that he hadn't read it?

Has to be one or the other.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST. You need to get a grip. You are taking their 2010 manifesto far too seriously. It was a work of fiction and not put together with any rigour as the party knew it would never get implemented.

Presumably their new one should be treated exactly the same as that one, it's just as funny. Although it is a concern that they didn't say they'd only brought out the 2010 manifesto as a joke during the election campaign itself...

[Iberian Red]

Excuse my ignorance, not living in the UK, but who is this Nigel fella with the European name?
Is he the one that looks like he suffers from dwarfism? Little shoulders, not quite long enough arms that have only ever managed to reach his pockets when he claimed from the EU?

[jucyberry]

Looks like a frog, I always expect him to gribbit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jucy

I thought I was the only one to notice that. Put a pair of goggles, a cap and a pair of driving gloves on him and he'd pass for Toad of Toad Hall.

And he looks normal at the side of their Tory recruit Carswell. Has he had one side of his face compressed in a vice?

[jucyberry]

Watching the chanting on the news last night made me feel even more uncomfortable with the thought of ukip than ever.

Brutish, thuggish sounding. More like a rally from the past than anything that might appeal today.

As for Reckless, well if they really believe his defection has anything to do with a disaffection with his former party they must want their bumps read. .

The cynic in me questions the motivation of a man who is quite liable to lose his seat in what one way or another is going to be a blood bath next year... Suddenly found principles or self preservation and a desire to stay on the Westminster gravy train?

[IC1967]

Watching the chanting on the news last night made me feel even more uncomfortable with the thought of ukip than ever.

Brutish, thuggish sounding. More like a rally from the past than anything that might appeal today.

As for Reckless, well if they really believe his defection has anything to do with a disaffection with his former party they must want their bumps read. .

The cynic in me questions the motivation of a man who is quite liable to lose his seat in what one way or another is going to be a blood bath next year... Suddenly found principles or self preservation and a desire to stay on the Westminster gravy train?

Excuse me. He had a 10,000 majority. A totally safe Tory seat. He's taken a big gamble trying to take it to UKIP. What an honourable man.

[IC1967]

Jucy

I thought I was the only one to notice that. Put a pair of goggles, a cap and a pair of driving gloves on him and he'd pass for Toad of Toad Hall.

And he looks normal at the side of their Tory recruit Carswell. Has he had one side of his face compressed in a vice?

Shame on you for criticising people just because of the way they look. If people were judged on looks I bet 95% of Rovers fans wouldn't be let into the ground (I'd still get in).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Once again Mick, you're confusing fact with opinion. Carswell DOES look as if one side of his face has been compacted. I'm not making any comment on my opinion of that look.

[IC1967]

Watching the chanting on the news last night made me feel even more uncomfortable with the thought of ukip than ever.

Brutish, thuggish sounding. More like a rally from the past than anything that might appeal today.

As for Reckless, well if they really believe his defection has anything to do with a disaffection with his former party they must want their bumps read. .

The cynic in me questions the motivation of a man who is quite liable to lose his seat in what one way or another is going to be a blood bath next year... Suddenly found principles or self preservation and a desire to stay on the Westminster gravy train?

It's called passion. I'm all for it.

[IC1967]

Once again Mick, you're confusing fact with opinion. Carswell DOES look as if one side of his face has been compacted. I'm not making any comment on my opinion of that look.

I think we all know you were judging people by their looks. I suspect if your avatar is anything to go by, you are on very dodgy ground (I wouldn't be).

[IC1967]

I don't like UKIP. I don't like the things they want and I certainly don't like the way they are making the little Englanders cream their pants at the thought of driving out any one whose ancestors were not slightly peeved at the arrival of William the b*****d.. (that being the conquer not Hague )

It is so easy to say what those who moan loudest want. I don't trust them nothing specific, I just don't.

So you think it's OK for half a billion people in the EU to up sticks and come to our already overcrowded island if they wake up one morning and suddenly decide life is rosier for them here than their own countries? Don't make me laugh.

[wilts rover]

BST. You need to get a grip. You are taking their 2010 manifesto far too seriously. It was a work of fiction and not put together with any rigour as the party knew it would never get implemented.

The fact is that Nige is a straight talking man of the people who is as honest as the day is long. When asked a question he gives a straight honest answer. You are on shaky ground trying to paint him as a liar. The one thing that makes UKIP politicians stand out from politicians of other parties is that they say what they think and answer questions directly and honestly. When was the last time you could say that about the vast majority of politicians from the Labour party? Have you forgotten what happened in Rotherham recently?

For your perusal

Does honesty matter? The example of Nigel Farage
Posted on May 15, 2014   by labourinternationalparis

“Cheeky chappy”.

“You’d have a pint with him.”

“The others ones are such odd t**ts.”

Every single reasonably aware British voter has heard these phrases – or similar versions thereof – with regards to Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, that seemingly unstoppable political juggernaut currently on 20-30% in most national polls for the upcoming European election in May, closely behind Labour. This improbable party leader, this Eurosceptic husband of a German wife, this former commodities trader now seen as a “man of the people” figure by many Britons, is such a Teflon politician that he even experienced a bump in popularity when it was revealed that he may well have been conducting an affair with his longstanding spokeswoman Annabelle Fuller (an affair that was an open secret for many UKIP members).

This comes despite much talk of expenses scandals, a lack of commitment to parliamentary duties, and the regular nomination of what more than one Tory has called “swivel eyed loons” as candidates for office at a European, national and local level. One look at current and recent Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) is enough to see that apart from Mr. Farage himself, UKIP’s elected representatives in Brussels have made sexist comments and been accused of sexual assault, been convicted and jailed for expenses fraud, and in the case of Ashley Mote held onto an MEP position despite actually serving prison time while still in office.

One might think any mainstream political movement would have long disappeared if it had UKIP’s record and elected officials. Yet even in polling for the upcoming general election in 2015 – national elections being notoriously bad for third, fourth and fifth parties – UKIP is polling at 10-15%, often ahead of the Liberal Democrats, and certainly high enough that it is now systematically counted as a “big” national party and not a fringe movement. How is this possible?

Well, let’s call it the “Berlusconi factor” – or perhaps the “Rob Ford factor”, after the crack cocaine-smoking drunkard who is currently mayor of Toronto. This factor is one that I remember all too well from my teenage years (in the early 2000s) in Dublin, when the obviously corrupt and incompetent Bertie Ahern (who once, as I remember, declared that drink driving rules shouldn’t apply to him as he ‘could drive just fine after ten pints’) was Prime Minister (or Taoiseach, as the Irish would say). The general populace had little to no trust in Ahern, yet he was elected in 1997 and re-elected twice thererafter. One might also call it the “George W Bush factor”, after that famous teetotaler who was voted into office as the candidate that the electorate would like to have a beer with.

That factor decreases with time, as voters actually see what such obvious populists can and will do once they actually get into power. However, it’s a slow process – Berlusconi is only now being gradually pushed to the sidelines – and the damage in terms of the destruction of public trust in their elected officials as obviously bonkers politicians exercise public office in the meantime is potentially awful. Little to nothing suggests that UKIP’s popularity is waning even as light is shed on the inner workings of the party. When and where their progression will be stopped is not clear.

http://labourinternationalparis.com/2014/05/15/does-honesty-matter-the-example-of-nigel-farage/

I dont live in Rotherham so I dont have the full picture on the ground at the time. What I do know is what came out from the trial and the recent report. But at the time must surely have been signs that something was wrong below the surface.

Nigel Farage may be honest (or he may not yet have been caught doing anything dishonest) but he leads a party full of self-serving nutters and criminals who have shown that once in office they have no actual capabilities, never mind doing anything for the benefit of the people of the UK. And people are seriously thinking of voting for them!!!

But yes I see your parrallels with Rotherham, there will be some big problems ahead if UKIP do well next May, but unlike Rotherham we have a chance to stop that happening.

[wilts rover]

I don't like UKIP. I don't like the things they want and I certainly don't like the way they are making the little Englanders cream their pants at the thought of driving out any one whose ancestors were not slightly peeved at the arrival of William the b*****d.. (that being the conquer not Hague )

It is so easy to say what those who moan loudest want. I don't trust them nothing specific, I just don't.

So you think it's OK for half a billion people in the EU to up sticks and come to our already overcrowded island if they wake up one morning and suddenly decide life is rosier for them here than their own countries? Don't make me laugh.

Like Nigel Farage's wife for instance? He didnt mind her coming over?

[The Red Baron]

TRB

Labour can absolutely rely on getting into power if they can mobilise their core vote. That might not be a fair outcome, but it is a facet of the electoral system that we have. If Labour get 35-36% in May, Miliband is in No10.

So it doesn't matter if he doesn't reach out to wavering Tory voters. He doesn't need to do. He needs to reassure the centre-left voters that he is on their side. That is Labour's entire strategy. And it has worked astonishingly well over the past 4 years.

If Labour end up in power 5 years after so spectacular a defeat in 2010, it will be unprecedented in the past 100 years. It generally takes parties at least 2 General Elections to bounce back from that sort of a defeat. It took Labour 14 years to recover from 1983. It took the Tories 13 years to recover from 1997. It was perfectly possible that Labour would have collapsed into inter-necine recriminations after 2010, especially given the bad blood between the Blairites and the Brownites. The fact that they haven't, and that they have stayed ahead in the polls for four years solid is a testament to Miliband's leadership, despite how he's portrayed.

BST

I have to disagree with the last point. Labour did not suffer the kind of defeat they did in 1983 or that the Tories did in 1997. They weren't that far away from being able to remain in power after the 2010 GE via a coalition. Had it not involved them getting into bed with their sworn enemies the SNP then they might have done it.

Also it strikes me you're trying to have it both ways. If Labour can take advantage of the quirks of the electoral system and unreformed constituency boundaries to obtain an overall majority on 35-36% of the popular vote, then there really is nothing "unprecedented" about a Labour victory. Quite the opposite in fact: if they can't achieve a majority at the next election then some serious questions will need to be asked about their strategy and leadership.

[jonrover]

Time for a reality check. UKIP are not going to win the general election. Their policies are therefore pretty meaningless. They have no chance of being implemented. Take my advice and don't even bother considering them for more than a few seconds.

If they get more than 5 MPs I'd be amazed. Unless they get more Tory defections I reckon 2 is probably what they'll get. This is not likely to give them any power at Westminster.

So everyone needs to take a chill pill and stop getting their knickers in a twist. The only reason to vote for UKIP is if you want out of Europe. That is what the party is all about.

I will be voting UKIP as I want out of Europe. I will also be voting tactically because I want to damage Labour as much as possible. In Doncaster the Tories are never going to beat Labour. The only possible chance Labour will be defeated is if UKIP manage to get enough votes. It's a long shot but I'm prepared to do my bit to try and make it happen. If I thought the Tories had a better chance than UKIP I'd vote for them.

UKIP are a breath of fresh air and I certainly broadly support most of their policies. However the general election will be fought between Labour and the Tories due to the first past the post system. If you want out of Europe then vote Tory where they have a chance of winning the seat. Where they have no chance, vote for UKIP. We must all do our duty and try and keep Labour out of power.

In June Mad Mick wrote-

"Jonrover, you have posted the biggest load of b*llocks I've read on this forum in a long time. UKIP are the only party talking sense about Europe. Forget all their other policies. They exist to get us out of Europe end of."

Well, well, well. I knew eventually you would contradict yourself. Mick, go and pull yourself off into a moist flannel because all you are is a pathetic WUM and it would be a much more rewarding use of your time. I'd like to say your credibility is gone, but you never had none in the first place.

[Iberian Red]

Jucy

I thought I was the only one to notice that. Put a pair of goggles, a cap and a pair of driving gloves on him and he'd pass for Toad of Toad Hall.

And he looks normal at the side of their Tory recruit Carswell. Has he had one side of his face compressed in a vice?

Shame on you for criticising people just because of the way they look. If people were judged on looks I bet 95% of Rovers fans wouldn't be let into the ground (I'd still get in).

I brought that point up you silly cnut, he is freaky and looks like the result of an incestuous family line. However, your pugnacious approach in chasing Billy around this board is commendable.  Your openly homo exotic crush on Billy is akin to the boys of the DRSG, and their following of Silent Majority. I admire you for coming out.
P.S,
Are you ginger?

[IC1967]

Jucy

I thought I was the only one to notice that. Put a pair of goggles, a cap and a pair of driving gloves on him and he'd pass for Toad of Toad Hall.

And he looks normal at the side of their Tory recruit Carswell. Has he had one side of his face compressed in a vice?

Shame on you for criticising people just because of the way they look. If people were judged on looks I bet 95% of Rovers fans wouldn't be let into the ground (I'd still get in).

I brought that point up you silly cnut, he is freaky and looks like the result of an incestuous family line. However, your pugnacious approach in chasing Billy around this board is commendable.  Your openly homo exotic crush on Billy is akin to the boys of the DRSG, and their following of Silent Majority. I admire you for coming out.
P.S,
Are you ginger?

You strike me as being one of the 95%. Luckily for you most of us are more tolerant than you are. You are still allowed into the Keepmoat.