Muslims

[Glyn_Wigley]

River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to.  I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai.  Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments  are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!

Well, this atheist ain't too happy with several of them!

[River Don]

River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to.  I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai.  Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments  are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!

Well, this atheist ain't too happy with several of them!

I'm not sure about coveting thy neighbours Ox to be honest but generally they're a reasonable set of guidelines.

In elevating that part of the bible above all else in the book or in faith generally, he is putting his own interpretation on it, which is my point.

[Nudga]

f**k The CofE

[Glyn_Wigley]

River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to.  I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai.  Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments  are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!

Well, this atheist ain't too happy with several of them!

I'm not sure about coveting thy neighbours Ox to be honest but generally they're a reasonable set of guidelines.

In elevating that part of the bible above all else in the book or in faith generally, he is putting his own interpretation on it, which is my point.

I meant he ones about there is no other God than me and you shall worship me etc.

[wilts rover]

Glyn, it's thou shalt worship no other God than me.

As an aethist I would have thought that would be an easy one for you to keep.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not having any 4000 year old shaman going up a mountain and coming down telling me not to swear or get a lazy lob on when I see the MILF over the road.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn, it's thou shalt worship no other God than me.

As an aethist I would have thought that would be an easy one for you to keep.

What about the 'I am the Lord thy God' one and the 'Remember the Sabbath day, keep it holy' one..?

[BobG]

I was telling Alex just yesterday, in the car, that we, collectively, missed the best chance to do something about the causes of all this 13 ish years ago. President Useless Bush. That's the man.

After September 11th, America had the sympathy of the world. Even Russia. Even China. If, then, the US had gone out of its way to enforce a solution to the causes of a number of the major grievances in the world, it would have taken a very, very brave national leader indeed to oppose, or even obstruct, it. So what did the 'leader of the free world' do? He picked a poor, defenceless country far away, demonised it, attacked it, bombed it , and radicalised both it and its near neighbour. And he got Al Quaida offshoots all over the world as a result. And then he bequeathed IS to the world too. Some US Presidents really have led the world towards being a better place. Some have been brave in doing it too. FDR is obvious. But LBJ, despite Vietnam, did some remarkably prescient and brave things too. So did JFK - even though, personally, I positively dislike the bloke. Eisenhower was wise where it mattered even if he was a boring pedant generally. But to me, Bush Jnr succesfully represented everything that is bad about the US of A. Short sghted. Vengeful. Uncaring of people or consequences. And worst of all, completely uninterested in the processes the world had in place to ensure stability and a degree of control. He set the unilateral tone that Russia is using so much more succesfully today. 

The degree of Bush's culpability is staggering. Mind blowingly so.

As Billy said, we've got this for generations to come now. The very worst thing we could do would be to extend that even further. The Jesuits used to say 'Give me the child and I will give you the man'. Well. conceptually, it's the children we need to be targetting now.

As a result of the job I do now, I am happily, or perhaps very unhappily, in a position to know a fair bit about this stuff. I'm not shitting any of you. This is serious. And the choices we make over the next 2 years are going to have repercussions for the rest of the life of every single person that uses this forum. So a bit of calm, of thoughtfulness and use of grey matter is vital. But revenge is a powerful motive. Snag is, the emotions it is based upon don't make for either thought or wisdom. Bush proved that in Spades. And we've just had another perfect example of how not to use our brains splashed right in front of our eyes too. Sadly, I can't see any reason why this is going to be any different.

Therefore BobG's long range political forecast is one of a western armed camp, desparately, and not very succesfully,  seeking to prevent outsiders creeping in. Of ever increasing pressure on the west as water, oil, metals and food run out. Of frightening armed western adventures to secure those rare supplies. An 'eastern bloc' that delights in pulling the tail of the western dragon but that curmudgeonly plays along when the going gets tough, and, much of the rest of the world intent on the eradication of the west, its allies and its values. And guess where that will lead? To a proscribed, restricted life where command and control and a specious definition of 'security' are everything and freedom is nothing. You can see that already beginning to happen right here. Right now. Do you want to live the rest of your life like that? If you don't, NOW is the time to stand up. To be counted. Not tomorrow. Now.

BobG

[River Don]

Sept 11 wasn't so pivotal. When those airliners hit the twin towers there were thousands in the Middle East who came out of their houses to celebrate. The rhetoric of extreme Islam has been with us for a long time and Al Qaeda was already deeply embedded. It is a movement with many heads, without clear leaders, that's why it's so deadly.

That's not to say attacking Iraq and Afghanistan was a good idea.

[idler]

There Were some Asian kids in Bradford doing that never mind the Middle East.

[River Don]

The reason we have this for generations to come is that we've had it for generations past. We've known about Islamic fundamentalism since before the days Gordon fought the mad Mahdi in Khartoum.

What's changed is cheap communication and travel.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

Of course they did. That is the response of the weak and the downtrodden when someone on their side lashes out back. You and I would do it if we had been born in the hell hole slums of Gaza.

The West and Israel have been responsible for the deaths and the hopeless lives of hundreds, thousand times more Muslims than the number of Westerners that have been killed by Islamists. From Iraq in the days of the Mandate, through Palestine and Algeria. That's the context that made hearts leap with joy when those airliners hit the towers. And the context that makes Islamists lash out when their prophet is mocked.

I don't agree with any of those actions. But I greatly fear that we are in an era where we in the West are oblivious to the crimes committed in our name that have brought us to the current situation. And so, there's a danger of us seeing them as evil vermin and us as innocent victims.

[River Don]

In recent decades the west has been far more effective in killing Muslims but Islam and Christendom have been at each other's throats since Islam emerged in the Middle East and swept all before it until it was brought to a halt in France.

In the end I think our best hope is for all sides to put these superstitions away and take a more enlightened view but it seems we are in an era where in most of the world religious belief is on the rise.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's fundamentally about power, education and economics. Religion, for the most part, fills the void for the poor, the powerless and the ignorant. It provides a context and a comfort for the earthly suffering. As people and countries increase their living standards and feel secure, religious zeal falls. That's always been the way.

We will have Islamic fundamentalism for the whole of this century and beyond. Because there is such a fertile ground for that religious message in the soil of the poor, the powerless and the poorly educated.  We have to deal with that. And we have to keep a sense of proportion when atrocities like this weeks' happen.

[River Don]

Is it the poverty that keeps nations Islamic or Islam that keeps nations poor?

Saudi is a pretty wealthy country but Islam maintains it's tight grip, with a few fabulously wealthy royals and a great mass of poor.

[IC1967]

Of course we should learn from history but it should not be an excuse for the current behaviour of radicalised muslims. There's only so much we can do to prevent terrorist attacks but we should crack on and start doing it. All this liberal leftie crap makes it easy for Muslims to do pretty much as they please in this country.

Like I say there is only so much we can do so lets start at home and set an example for the rest of the world to follow. Leaving things as they are and pussy footing around the issue is not going to sort things out.

Our media needs to stop being scared of ridiculing Islam for fear of upsetting Muslims. The politicians especially Labour ones need to be less scared of causing offence. As things stand, the terrorists have won because pretty much all our mainstream media refuses to print cartoons or anything that might get a reaction from Muslims. Charlie Hebdo stood out as it was pretty much the only media that ridiculed Islam. If all the media did this then it would soon become 'normal' and some of the brainwashing that Muslims suffer from would be undone.

Fear of upsetting Muslims is dressed up as tolerance by the politically correct brigade. It has to stop.

[BobG]

Hear hear Billy. Don, you're dead right that Saudi Arabia, for example, has the cash to do something about poverty and education - but it still lacks both the ethos, culture, values (whatever you want to call it) and the will. And that is because they 'joined' the western world, got the cash, less than 50 years ago. It took Europe, and its offshoots, over a thousand years to develop the values and culture we have at today. It's foolish to expect the Arabs to be anywhere within a thousand miles of that in less than half a century. (You can apply the exact same argument to Russia by the way too. Just think about where these countries have come from, what their values have been for centuries and how those fit with what we are pleased to call 'civilisation'. (And just for fun, think about what reasons you could offer why our way is better than anyone elses - without using western platitudes too! One example: why, WHY, should life be sacrosanct? It isn't in the animal kingdom. It isn't in early civilisations. It isn't in quite a lot of the none western world. It isn't, even, in the west any  more. Drones kill hundreds and hundreds of entirely innocent old men, women and children every year in an undeclared war that has not been approved by a single parliament anywhere). Just think what impact that has on uneducated, poverty stricken blokes in the Middle East, Pakistan)

Our actions surely have to be designed to encourage the growth of education, the relief of mass poverty, the provision of hope and aspiration. It will take a very long time indeed to achieve. That's one of the reasons why it's so important what we decide now, and it's one of the reasons why Bush was such an unmitigated disaster for the whole world. The one thing we really should not be doing, yet again, is an eye for an eye.

A mate of mine once suggested to me, when I was struggling badly, that if something isn't working, doing more of the same won't solve the problem. Well, do you believe that how the west has, and continues, to treat Arabs, Islam, the poor and the disadvantaged is working? And if your answer is 'No', what, exactly do you propose should be done about that?

Bob

[River Don]

I think the Arabs and Islamic nations probably have to help themselves, I don't think it's all the fault of the West that they are in a mess. It isn't taking the Chinese very long to turn their society from an agrarian backwater into an industrial powerhouse. It took the Japanese about 50years and defeat in war to achieve their economic objective of 'catch up and overtake'. South Korea joined the western world and transformed itself in the 30 years between the 60s and 90s.

Islamic societies need to be more open and democratic but their religion is holding them back from developing it because their religious texts hold within them a system of law that isn't appropriate for the age we live in.

[Iberian Red]

The reason we have this for generations to come is that we've had it for generations past. We've known about Islamic fundamentalism since before the days Gordon fought the mad Mahdi in Khartoum.

What's changed is cheap communication and travel.

Hallelujah.  Let's blame Ryanair

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

5 of the top 10 and 8 of the top 20 richest countries in the world (judged by GDP per capita PPP - IMF figures for 2013) are Islamic countries. And 6 of the poorest 7 countries on that list have overwhelming majorities of Christian citizens.

Clearly Islam doesn't make countries poor. Any more than Christianity makes countries rich. It's natural resources, stability, internal and geo-politics that makes countries rich or poor. And it's the willingness of the powerful within a country to appropriate power and wealth to themselves and beggar their fellow countrymen that makes some people bestially poor in relatively rich countries. That's nothing to do with religion. Go have a look at the Rio favelas.

[Mike_F]

I've never been a fan of what I generally believe to be loony conspiracy theories but where Islamic terrorism is involved I can't help thinking that a good chunk of it could be curtailed quite easily if it was in the interests of governments to do so.

Saudi has already been cited as a wealthy Islamic state and it's known to be a major sponsor of extremism yet our two countries are on friendly terms.

There seems to be a great deal of diversionary politics going on around the world (perhaps not notably in Russia). When people are worried about  their civil liberties and even their lives then they are less likely to focus on the nefarious dealings of those in power or bring about major social change.

Could a threat of terror attacks be a good way of burying the transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy?

The rise of UKIP from the right has no doubt been partially influenced by fear of brown people. It's got the working classes out in support of the people who would take bread from their mouths to  adorn the banqueting tables of the super-rich.

Those with power and money in the Middle East are using gear of god to manipulate the poor and disenfranchised. Those with power and money here are using fear of terrorism. A few proles wiped out around the world regardless of creed are the collateral damage in the machine that keeps the worldwide old boys' network intact.

[Mike_F]

By the way, I fully expect a swift deconstruction of that back-of-a-fag-packet theory but I can't help feeling there's some truth in it somewhere.

[Draytonian III]

In their faith is it okay to gamble their money ?

[Mike_F]

I don't know but I was thinking about that with the huge amounts spent on horse racing etc.

[Dagenham Rover]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/saudi-blogger-first-lashes-raif-badawi

[Donnywolf]

I don't know but I was thinking about that with the huge amounts spent on horse racing etc.

There did not appear to be "gambling" when I went to Nad Al Sheba (pardon spelling). At least I could break even for once

There was a HUGE crowd though any they could pay a small amount - about 50p - and using a Slip like a Placepot pick the Winners of each Race. Whoever managed it got a fairly decent Car

The crowd was very polite and rose to their feet and applauded the winning Horse during the final furlong. The whole thing was held under floodlight and the facilities were way better than Donny and should have been with the expenditure. Then they built a new place across the road and blew up the "old" place

[jucyberry]

I've never been a fan of what I generally believe to be loony conspiracy theories but where Islamic terrorism is involved I can't help thinking that a good chunk of it could be curtailed quite easily if it was in the interests of governments to do so.

Saudi has already been cited as a wealthy Islamic state and it's known to be a major sponsor of extremism yet our two countries are on friendly terms.

There seems to be a great deal of diversionary politics going on around the world (perhaps not notably in Russia). When people are worried about  their civil liberties and even their lives then they are less likely to focus on the nefarious dealings of those in power or bring about major social change.

Could a threat of terror attacks be a good way of burying the transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy?

The rise of UKIP from the right has no doubt been partially influenced by fear of brown people. It's got the working classes out in support of the people who would take bread from their mouths to  adorn the banqueting tables of the super-rich.

Those with power and money in the Middle East are using gear of god to manipulate the poor and disenfranchised. Those with power and money here are using fear of terrorism. A few proles wiped out around the world regardless of creed are the collateral damage in the machine that keeps the worldwide old boys' network intact.

It's a terrible thing to think but I am with you Mike. There is something really odd about all this, three murderous men all supposedly part of the same cell yet tonight we are told that they belong to two separate factions? Isis and Al Qaeda.

I have read that there is the thought that this is the Zionists punishment to France for recognising Palestine.

I know I will get laughed down but imho it never pays to trust anything in this world, certainly not our governments.

[IC1967]

I've never been a fan of what I generally believe to be loony conspiracy theories but where Islamic terrorism is involved I can't help thinking that a good chunk of it could be curtailed quite easily if it was in the interests of governments to do so.

Saudi has already been cited as a wealthy Islamic state and it's known to be a major sponsor of extremism yet our two countries are on friendly terms.

There seems to be a great deal of diversionary politics going on around the world (perhaps not notably in Russia). When people are worried about  their civil liberties and even their lives then they are less likely to focus on the nefarious dealings of those in power or bring about major social change.

Could a threat of terror attacks be a good way of burying the transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy?

The rise of UKIP from the right has no doubt been partially influenced by fear of brown people. It's got the working classes out in support of the people who would take bread from their mouths to  adorn the banqueting tables of the super-rich.

Those with power and money in the Middle East are using gear of god to manipulate the poor and disenfranchised. Those with power and money here are using fear of terrorism. A few proles wiped out around the world regardless of creed are the collateral damage in the machine that keeps the worldwide old boys' network intact.

I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.

[IC1967]

I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.

I think the silent majority would totally disagree with you.