Muslims

[Dagenham Rover]

I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.

 

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.

I think the silent majority would totally disagree with you. 

A perfect illustration. Many thanks. 

[BobG]

Do you know how and why the Lusitania came to be torpedoed Mick?

It's very instructive indeed given MikeF's thoughts and your patronising view of them.

Just think Churchill, politics and strategic imperative. Then apply that to today's weltanschaung. Mike may not have it right. But it's worth serious thought given the example I suggest you research. If you can't do that, I can supply as many details as you like. And just to make things easier for you, you could try reading ISBN 0 14 00.3793.4 Colin Simpson. Longman 1972. Reprinted Penguin. 1974 .It's a fair summary for beginners.

BobG

[IC1967]

Do you know how and why the Lusitania came to be torpedoed Mick?

It's very instructive indeed given MikeF's thoughts and your patronising view of them.

Just think Churchill, politics and strategic imperative. Then apply that to today's weltanschaung. Mike may not have it right. But it's worth serious thought given the example I suggest you research. If you can't do that, I can supply as many details as you like. And just to make things easier for you, you could try reading ISBN 0 14 00.3793.4 Colin Simpson. Longman 1972. Reprinted Penguin. 1974 .It's a fair summary for beginners.

BobG

I've done Mike the courtesy of reading his post again before deciding I was right all along. I will say one thing for him though. He does have a very vivid imagination.

However I do issue an abject apology to Mike if I came across as patronising. Regular readers of this forum will know that I never usually come across this way. I'm afraid I have a very pugnacious debating style that can be a bit disconcerting to others that prefer to debate in a beat about the bush fashion.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Mick's ego. The gift that keeps on giving.

[River Don]

I see Evan Davies displayed the front cover of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo paper, featuring another cartoon of the prophet.

That took a bit of courage, I wonder if anyone else in the British media will follow suit?

[BillyStubbsTears]

In all the welter of emotion that has been poured out since the attack last week, I initially missed this

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/11/7527697/ahmed-malek-merabet-eulogy-charlie-hebdo

Scroll down to the transcript of the murdered policeman's brother's comments.

Anyone who berates Islam and Muslims as a collective should read this every day and ponder on it.

Islam and Muslims are as diverse and varied as any other group of people. There are the rich and the poor, the powerful and the weak, the thoughtful and the ignorant, the humane and the bestial.

Collective branding of a group with certain perceived features is both ignorant and dangerous. Malek Merabet's beautiful eulogy, in the face of pain that I hope I never have to imagine, is a reminder to us all that there are thoughtful, decent, caring, forgiving, humane people from every background. Those are the ones that we should reach out to.

[IC1967]

I see Evan Davies displayed the front cover of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo paper, featuring another cartoon of the prophet.

That took a bit of courage, I wonder if anyone else in the British media will follow suit?

Newsnight did it a few nights ago as well when Kirsty Wark was presenting. So did Panorama last night. I think the BBC have been really stung by criticism that they have pandered to Muslims by not reporting anything that might offend them. Panorama was interesting in that it appears the main threat that Muslims pose in the UK is that there is a section amongst them that is rapidly growing that denounce violence but promote the view that Islam should be the religion of the whole world. The leaders of this growing faction are advising that Muslims use the freedom of speech that exists in the UK to promote their cause as much as possible.

Unfortunately it is not a big leap to believing that violence is the way to help the spread of Islam to become the religion of the world. There you have it. There is a large and growing cohort of Muslims that want Islam to become the religion of the UK and the world. Islamification is going on under our noses and we are letting it happen.

[River Don]

In all the welter of emotion that has been poured out since the attack last week, I initially missed this

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/11/7527697/ahmed-malek-merabet-eulogy-charlie-hebdo

Scroll down to the transcript of the murdered policeman's brother's comments.

Anyone who berates Islam and Muslims as a collective should read this every day and ponder on it.

Islam and Muslims are as diverse and varied as any other group of people. There are the rich and the poor, the powerful and the weak, the thoughtful and the ignorant, the humane and the bestial.

Collective branding of a group with certain perceived features is both ignorant and dangerous. Malek Merabet's beautiful eulogy, in the face of pain that I hope I never have to imagine, is a reminder to us all that there are thoughtful, decent, caring, forgiving, humane people from every background. Those are the ones that we should reach out to.

I have no doubt there are plenty of decent, caring, forgiving, humane Muslims in this country.

That said the British Muslim community is split on the issue of sharia law. 40% want to see it introduced into parts of the UK while 40% are against. The other 20% can't make their minds up. That's not a tiny minority and it should concern us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

You (like the Telegraph) pick one figure from a very poorly worded question and make a conclusion based on that.

Here's the original poll.
http://www.icmunlimited.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf

The Telegraph could have headlined on the fact that 91% of Muslims feel loyalty to the UK. Or that a majority thought that Abu Hamza had been treated fairly at his trial.

On the Sharia issue, there are many shades to this. The question is very, very badly worded in simply asking if Sharia Law should be introduced. Many Muslims do want ASPECTS of Sharia law to be introduced for various domestic and contractual issues between Muslims. That is a far cry from assuming (not saying YOU do, but the unspoken worry is there) that they want public floggings and hands chopped off.

As I've been saying in this thread, there are clear and obvious concerns with issues between the Muslim and other communities in this country. But there's also a need for us to keep a sense of perspective.

[IC1967]

RD

You (like the Telegraph) pick one figure from a very poorly worded question and make a conclusion based on that.

Here's the original poll.
http://www.icmunlimited.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf

The Telegraph could have headlined on the fact that 91% of Muslims feel loyalty to the UK. Or that a majority thought that Abu Hamza had been treated fairly at his trial.

On the Sharia issue, there are many shades to this. The question is very, very badly worded in simply asking if Sharia Law should be introduced. Many Muslims do want ASPECTS of Sharia law to be introduced for various domestic and contractual issues between Muslims. That is a far cry from assuming (not saying YOU do, but the unspoken worry is there) that they want public floggings and hands chopped off.

As I've been saying in this thread, there are clear and obvious concerns with issues between the Muslim and other communities in this country. But there's also a need for us to keep a sense of perspective.

Keeping a politically correct sense of perspective will mean the situation will get worse. When 80% of Muslims (in the UK) think it should be a criminal offence if their religion is criticised it shows there is a long way to go.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes well. When I said that we should keep a sense of perspective, the last person I was thinking of including in the "we" was you Mick. You couldn't sense if your arse was on fire.

[IC1967]

Yes well. When I said that we should keep a sense of perspective, the last person I was thinking of including in the "we" was you Mick. You couldn't sense if your arse was on fire.

Look, it's thanks to liberal lefties like you that we have a growing problem with Muslims. The media daren't criticise Islam, they can set up faith schools so their children can carry on being brainwashed, radical preachers can speak freely in their mosques with impunity etc. Get a grip man. All this wishy washy political correctness is adding to the problem not sorting it out.

[River Don]

BST

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I think we generally agree to be honest. I can understand your concern that Islam should not be demonised, that Muslims are a diverse lot. I get that.

I don't think it's wise for us not to be guarded. To turn a blind to difficult issues, like the domination of certain British schools by a Muslim majority and to allow them to enforce strict Islamic rules. I don't agree with faith schools at all, just my personal opinion.

To be honest I find the idea of introducing any kind of sharia law into the UK unacceptable, just as I find the idea of Jewish courts, which have been allowed in some parts of the UK unacceptable. For me we should all live under and abide by UK law and that's it.

[IC1967]

There is no doubt in my mind that Islam is a growing threat to our way of life. Here is plenty of evidence to prove the point.

When there are statements like this in the Koran is it any wonder?

"Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination."
Quran 9:73

Here is plenty of evidence to prove the point.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

[Yargo]

I see Evan Davies displayed the front cover of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo paper, featuring another cartoon of the prophet.

That took a bit of courage, I wonder if anyone else in the British media will follow suit?

Roundup of some of the world's media,some have chosen self censorship
http://www.buzzfeed.com/austinhunt/heres-who-is-and-isnt-publishing-the-new-charlie-hebdo-cover#.xqkDx8pjw

[donnyproletarian]

I attended a faith school which set me up with the basics in life to know right from wrong.My parents of irish descent had to fight ignorance and bigotry to become an estabished part of the community Denaby Main.Later on the commonwealth immigrants arrived who worked the busses and hospitals.They too assimilated but found it more difficult to hide largely because of there colour and the need to stick together for support from continued discrimination.Wind the clock on and we now have muslims who have become the new whipping boys for moral majority.Reflecting upon my dangerious faith school education I remember some fundamental principles that may apply to current situation.

1 two wrongs dont make a right
2 let he who is without sin cast the first stone
3 love your neighbour
4 turn the other cheek
5 feed the poor
6 there are many mansions in my fathers house
7 find your own god and dont let pope or priest stand in your way
And so on etc

I can see how such ideals may be a threat to society and need to be curtailed

[IC1967]

I attended a faith school which set me up with the basics in life to know right from wrong.My parents of irish descent had to fight ignorance and bigotry to become an estabished part of the community Denaby Main.Later on the commonwealth immigrants arrived who worked the busses and hospitals.They too assimilated but found it more difficult to hide largely because of there colour and the need to stick together for support from continued discrimination.Wind the clock on and we now have muslims who have become the new whipping boys for moral majority.Reflecting upon my dangerious faith school education I remember some fundamental principles that may apply to current situation.

1 two wrongs dont make a right
2 let he who is without sin cast the first stone
3 love your neighbour
4 turn the other cheek
5 feed the poor
6 there are many mansions in my fathers house
7 find your own god and dont let pope or priest stand in your way
And so on etc

I can see how such ideals may be a threat to society and need to be curtailed

Faith schools, are nothing more than centres for the indoctrination of children.

I think you'll find that you would have integrated much more quickly into  British society if you'd gone to a non faith school. By going to a Catholic school you were segregated from Protestants which made up the bulk of the British population. No wonder it took many years for your family to be integrated.

You were also taught a lot of absurd things such as your religion was the only correct one. No doubt you looked down on other religions due to this brainwashing. Sex before marriage was wrong, contraception was wrong and sex between a man and woman was only for the procreation of children. There are many other absurdities I could list.

Did you know that Muslims are taught that the world is only 6000 years old? They are also taught that creationism is right and evolution is wrong. There are also many more absurd things they are taught. This would not be the case if they were taught in non faith schools. They would also integrate a lot more quickly.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

I hope you didn't take my post as a personal attack. Wasn't the intention.

We have a different slant on the tactics, but I think both of us want to see the extremists isolated and hounded, and the moderates supported and encouraged to continue to become key parts of our society.

My take is that it's a long, long process. On the issue of that opinion poll, there were many aspects that were extremely promising on the issue of assimilation and integration, especially given the context that it was taken at the very height of the Iraq War/Guantanamo.

Which is not to say that there aren't huge problems too. But my worry is that when intelligent people focus only on the negatives, it feeds the attitudes of those who want stupid, dangerous responses to the situation, like our resident idiot here.

[donnyproletarian]

I am not going to get into an argument about the pros and cons of non faith schools.You either believe there is a spiritual element to our existance or you dont.Education requires an open mind which I would argue that you dont have in abundance judging by some of your bigoted comments on this foruum.In another post you boast you are amongst the top 1 per cent of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around you.We now live in a world were the norm is food banks, zero hour contracts and the rationing of life saving contracts.I suggest that it you who have been brainwashed by a secular education system that advocates materialist aspirations above your humanity.
I am aware of the shortcommings of our education system but you must be aware that all schools regardless of status are under the national cirriculum which is universal.It is interesting to note however that many non catholic parents (a third) elect to send there children for systematic  brainwashing which are feeder schools for mcaulies etc.I wonder why ?

I have many issues with established religion as an institution that perpetuates the status quo to the detriment of the community .I could reel of reams of stuff about the history of the church and dodgy dealings and I do so as I try to keep an open mind.I am what I suppose is a practicing catholic as I have still not got it right.I was educated to degree level and chose to work inthe care sector as I abhor the calvinist work ethic that gave rise to capitalism.I have read Marx, Engels and trotsky and although I dont swallow the whole pill believe that they had a good grasp on what makes society tick.As a socialist I would welcome the return of clause 4 part 4 of the labour party constitution as the class system is as prevailent as ever in our society.

Now back to religion.You need to research some of your steriotypical ideas regarding catholics.Contraceptives are now endorsed as evidenced by not many families having 10 kids.Science and theology are now bridging gaps as knowledge improves.We are not tought that jonah lived in a whale and stuuff like that.The parables of the old testament were aimed at dudes sat around camp fires with limited intellect, not unlike youself.If that sounds unchristian please forgive me as I have been brainwashed from an early age.

Some

[IC1967]

I am not going to get into an argument about the pros and cons of non faith schools.You either believe there is a spiritual element to our existance or you dont.Education requires an open mind which I would argue that you dont have in abundance judging by some of your bigoted comments on this foruum.In another post you boast you are amongst the top 1 per cent of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around you.We now live in a world were the norm is food banks, zero hour contracts and the rationing of life saving contracts.I suggest that it you who have been brainwashed by a secular education system that advocates materialist aspirations above your humanity.
I am aware of the shortcommings of our education system but you must be aware that all schools regardless of status are under the national cirriculum which is universal.It is interesting to note however that many non catholic parents (a third) elect to send there children for systematic  brainwashing which are feeder schools for mcaulies etc.I wonder why ?

I have many issues with established religion as an institution that perpetuates the status quo to the detriment of the community .I could reel of reams of stuff about the history of the church and dodgy dealings and I do so as I try to keep an open mind.I am what I suppose is a practicing catholic as I have still not got it right.I was educated to degree level and chose to work inthe care sector as I abhor the calvinist work ethic that gave rise to capitalism.I have read Marx, Engels and trotsky and although I dont swallow the whole pill believe that they had a good grasp on what makes society tick.As a socialist I would welcome the return of clause 4 part 4 of the labour party constitution as the class system is as prevailent as ever in our society.

Now back to religion.You need to research some of your steriotypical ideas regarding catholics.Contraceptives are now endorsed as evidenced by not many families having 10 kids.Science and theology are now bridging gaps as knowledge improves.We are not tought that jonah lived in a whale and stuuff like that.The parables of the old testament were aimed at dudes sat around camp fires with limited intellect, not unlike youself.If that sounds unchristian please forgive me as I have been brainwashed from an early age.

You are a classic example of someone who has been brainwashed at a faith school and you have been unable to shake off this baggage. The way you were  taught has also had the knock on effect of turning you into a hardcore leftie. The Catholic religion espouses a predominantly socialist way of life so no surprise there.

The absurd examples I gave of your religion were in the past tense. What I said used to be true but the Church has realised that its previous prognostications were extremely silly so they have 'modernised' and softened their stance. However there are still plenty of absurd beliefs that don't bear the slightest scrutiny in this day and age. However believers for some reason I cannot understand, seem perfectly capable of suspending the rational part of their brain and believe a lot of complete nonsense. To me that means they have been brainwashed. The more intelligent amongst us manage eventually to shake off this brainwashing but unfortunately there are many that can't or don't want to.

Ask yourself a question. Why are you a Catholic? The answer, because your parents were. Why do you believe what you believe? Answer, because you went to a Catholic school. You didn't have any choice in what religion you chose. You are a Catholic by chance. You believe your God is the only one. You don't believe there is no such thing as a God. You I'm afraid have been brainwashed and it doesn't half show.

You say education requires an open mind. I totally agree. You don't get your mind opened at a faith school. You get brainwashed.

You say I'm a bigot. Totally untrue. However I'm not surprised you use that comment as I'm used to lefties calling anyone that questions religion a bigot or anyone that questions immigration is called a racist. Easy politically correct labels to throw around when you've lost the debate.

You say I boasted about being in the top 1% of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around me. I think you'll find it was BobG that was boasting about being wealthier than me. That thread was merely an effort to educate you lefties into realising most of you are in the top 1%. If you truly wanted to be christian and socialist you need to realise that fact and start getting off your high horse constantly slagging off the rich. You don't realise you are slagging off yourselves. Remember, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I'd start helping the poor a bit more if I were you if you want to go to heaven otherwise hell awaits.

No way is just the national curriculum taught in all schools. You are way off the mark there. Non Catholics only send their children to Catholic schools only if they perceive they will get a better education. They put up with the religion side of things as they see that getting a good education is very important.

To finish I list some absurd beliefs of the Catholic religion.

There is a God.
All humans are born with original sin, which only Baptism removes.
A man can only marry a woman.
Sex should only be between married people only for the procreation of children or as a sign of love between the couple. It must never be used purely for pleasure.
The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God. This is despite its many contradictions and editing over the centuries.
Adam and Eve were our first parents.
Condoms should not be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.

I could go on for hours. How anyone with half a brain can believe such cobblers is beyond me. The only reason they do is brainwashing. It must stop. All faith schools should be banned immediately.

[Filo]

You went to St Peters, Mick, was n't that a faith School?

You are of Catholic Irish descent Mick!

There are also C of E faith schools

[IC1967]

I have to say Catholic schools are nowhere near as bad as they used to be. But they are still bad. Trust me. I'm an expert on this subject.

To be fair to C of E schools, they are more like the secular non faith school that I favour. My children went to C of E schools and were taught about all religions and did not have the belief in God rammed down their throats. They both left school as atheists which is how it should be.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Socialist Republic of Ireland eh?

All them hardcore lefties in the Vatican eh?

Another thread gurgles down the plug hole of Mick's stentorian idiocy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

For those who want Muslim leaders to speak out against terrorism (ps: they do. A lot. But I couldn't resist this one)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/muslim-mayor-of-rotterdam-ahmed-aboutaleb-tells-extremists-who-dont-like-freedom-to-f-off-9975459.html

[Filo]

For those who want Muslim leaders to speak out against terrorism (ps: they do. A lot. But I couldn't resist this one)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/muslim-mayor-of-rotterdam-ahmed-aboutaleb-tells-extremists-who-dont-like-freedom-to-f-off-9975459.html

Lol! Did the prophet approve the use of such colourful language?

[donnyproletarian]

I am not going to get into an argument about the pros and cons of non faith schools.You either believe there is a spiritual element to our existance or you dont.Education requires an open mind which I would argue that you dont have in abundance judging by some of your bigoted comments on this foruum.In another post you boast you are amongst the top 1 per cent of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around you.We now live in a world were the norm is food banks, zero hour contracts and the rationing of life saving contracts.I suggest that it you who have been brainwashed by a secular education system that advocates materialist aspirations above your humanity.
I am aware of the shortcommings of our education system but you must be aware that all schools regardless of status are under the national cirriculum which is universal.It is interesting to note however that many non catholic parents (a third) elect to send there children for systematic  brainwashing which are feeder schools for mcaulies etc.I wonder why ?

I have many issues with established religion as an institution that perpetuates the status quo to the detriment of the community .I could reel of reams of stuff about the history of the church and dodgy dealings and I do so as I try to keep an open mind.I am what I suppose is a practicing catholic as I have still not got it right.I was educated to degree level and chose to work inthe care sector as I abhor the calvinist work ethic that gave rise to capitalism.I have read Marx, Engels and trotsky and although I dont swallow the whole pill believe that they had a good grasp on what makes society tick.As a socialist I would welcome the return of clause 4 part 4 of the labour party constitution as the class system is as prevailent as ever in our society.

Now back to religion.You need to research some of your steriotypical ideas regarding catholics.Contraceptives are now endorsed as evidenced by not many families having 10 kids.Science and theology are now bridging gaps as knowledge improves.We are not tought that jonah lived in a whale and stuuff like that.The parables of the old testament were aimed at dudes sat around camp fires with limited intellect, not unlike youself.If that sounds unchristian please forgive me as I have been brainwashed from an early age.

You are a classic example of someone who has been brainwashed at a faith school and you have been unable to shake off this baggage. The way you were  taught has also had the knock on effect of turning you into a hardcore leftie. The Catholic religion espouses a predominantly socialist way of life so no surprise there.

The absurd examples I gave of your religion were in the past tense. What I said used to be true but the Church has realised that its previous prognostications were extremely silly so they have 'modernised' and softened their stance. However there are still plenty of absurd beliefs that don't bear the slightest scrutiny in this day and age. However believers for some reason I cannot understand, seem perfectly capable of suspending the rational part of their brain and believe a lot of complete nonsense. To me that means they have been brainwashed. The more intelligent amongst us manage eventually to shake off this brainwashing but unfortunately there are many that can't or don't want to.

Ask yourself a question. Why are you a Catholic? The answer, because your parents were. Why do you believe what you believe? Answer, because you went to a Catholic school. You didn't have any choice in what religion you chose. You are a Catholic by chance. You believe your God is the only one. You don't believe there is no such thing as a God. You I'm afraid have been brainwashed and it doesn't half show.

You say education requires an open mind. I totally agree. You don't get your mind opened at a faith school. You get brainwashed.

You say I'm a bigot. Totally untrue. However I'm not surprised you use that comment as I'm used to lefties calling anyone that questions religion a bigot or anyone that questions immigration is called a racist. Easy politically correct labels to throw around when you've lost the debate.

You say I boasted about being in the top 1% of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around me. I think you'll find it was BobG that was boasting about being wealthier than me. That thread was merely an effort to educate you lefties into realising most of you are in the top 1%. If you truly wanted to be christian and socialist you need to realise that fact and start getting off your high horse constantly slagging off the rich. You don't realise you are slagging off yourselves. Remember, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I'd start helping the poor a bit more if I were you if you want to go to heaven otherwise hell awaits.

No way is just the national curriculum taught in all schools. You are way off the mark there. Non Catholics only send their children to Catholic schools only if they perceive they will get a better education. They put up with the religion side of things as they see that getting a good education is very important.

To finish I list some absurd beliefs of the Catholic religion.

There is a God.
All humans are born with original sin, which only Baptism removes.
A man can only marry a woman.
Sex should only be between married people only for the procreation of children or as a sign of love between the couple. It must never be used purely for pleasure.
The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God. This is despite its many contradictions and editing over the centuries.
Adam and Eve were our first parents.
Condoms should not be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.

I could go on for hours. How anyone with half a brain can believe such cobblers is beyond me. The only reason they do is brainwashing. It must stop. All faith schools should be banned immediately.

I was not aware i had lost a debate .Was there a show of hands from a cross section of the community like on question time ?If so, who was chairing .

You make a lot of assumptions about my background but i notice on comments from another poster that we share a similar history which would suggest that you too have been brainwashed comrade .If you are an expert as you say you must be a left footer like me .Pot calling kettle black springs to mind.

Okay reality check.

We are all victims of brain washing whether it comes from the media ,family or institutions like schools .Sociologists refer to the process as socialisation,psychology names it something else but it mainly means the same thing.We are all products of our environments shaped by on a macro level socio-political factors and on a micro level personal experiences .Throw into this equation the nature /nurture controversy and other variables like gender,age and race and which footy club you support may determine how f-cked up we really are.So as neither of us are exempt from this process  i will give you that one for free .

You are also right that many parents access faith schools for a better education but fail to acknowledge the epidemic of bullying as a motivator for why parents choose faith schools  . This alone should raise alarms why the state schools are failing to compete.Surely it couldn't be the extra cirricula values you refer to underpinning the national cirriculum which all schools are legally obliged to implement .So you got that one wrong old cock.I could go on about the comprehensive system being undermined by succesive governments or the work of Illich in his critique of de schooling society etc but whats the point you have already closed your mind to that one as you say you are an expert.

To me  faith is a personal thing that must be experienced/felt rather than learned.I describe myself as an agnostic as i do not fully understand the concept of an absolute truth .This is a question that philosophers have battled with for eons even pre christianity.However, i am inspired by the teachings of  JC and choose not to give up these values even if it means trying to be nice to dick heads like you (sorry god -see you in confession next week and by the way sorry as well for laughing at that film life of brian).I have seen things that can not be explained by science and so continue to keep an open mind.I am reconciled to stop asking questions about the other side and instead concentrate on the here and now which is why i fell out with religion as it teaches you to accept your lot in this life and turn a blind eye to all the crap going on.To me it is academic as to the existence of an after life as it would not make difference to what i am doing today .But if the gospels are a conspiracy as you suggest from all the editing etc i would like to meet the bloke who wrote the original as he was some scholar and would get my vote tomorrow

The road to damascus or the eureka moment occurred for me when attending a church service in Oxford.The local priest was talking about the evils of communism creeping into the schools.The following week i attended a service in Denaby where the Irish priest was preaching the evils of Thatcherism .Same theme education but differing perspectives reflecting the needs of the parish.I quickly discovered that my idea of christianity was not the norm but to find out this i had to travel 100 miles away from home to discover the truth.I was resident in a adult catholic college for two years.It was the time of the miners strike and i became ostracised amongst the southern faithful especially after i became an activist .So it is absurd to state that the church is predominantly socialist Much research validates the role of the church as an institution propping up amoral right wing regimes which is probably why it has survived for so long

I agree there is a lot of outdated nonsence peddled by the church such as sex before marriage stuff (by the way my missis is not a catholic and believes in no sex after marriage) but as you are so down on lefties consider this .The soviet union repressed people practicing various faiths for  fifty years with barbarism at its worst yet they survived .Your suggestion to close faith schools which are part of our heritage would strengthen not weaken our resolve.

Finally you assume i have a bob or two and can afford to splash the cash .How do you know i don't ?I will shortly be taking part in strike action as i have not had a pay rise in over 5 years so i may not be able to continue my charitable contributions .Maybe you would like take over my contributions comrade as the charity concerned is a non faith childrens one

[River Don]

RD

I hope you didn't take my post as a personal attack. Wasn't the intention.

We have a different slant on the tactics, but I think both of us want to see the extremists isolated and hounded, and the moderates supported and encouraged to continue to become key parts of our society.

My take is that it's a long, long process. On the issue of that opinion poll, there were many aspects that were extremely promising on the issue of assimilation and integration, especially given the context that it was taken at the very height of the Iraq War/Guantanamo.

Which is not to say that there aren't huge problems too. But my worry is that when intelligent people focus only on the negatives, it feeds the attitudes of those who want stupid, dangerous responses to the situation, like our resident idiot here.

Don't worry BST, I didn't take it that way. It wasn't meant to read that way.

[IC1967]

Take it from me that you lost the debate. I have weighed up your case and have decided I was right all along.

My background doesn't matter. If I do have a similar background to you does that not make my case stronger? I have shaken off the brainwashing shackles and you have to some extent. It's not a big leap from agnostic to aetheist. You need to think a bit more about the absurdities of all religions and you will soon come to the conclusion that they are all extremely silly. Aethism is the only rational conclusion to come to. Why is it that aetheists are predominantly very intelligent and believers are for the most part a bit thick or lacking in education?

I think you'll find the Bible is a collection of fairy stories by many people not just one person. It is an extremely silly book. How anyone can take it seriously is beyond me.

Allowing faith schools to continue means children are still being brainwashed, particularly in the Muslim community. Christian schools are no way near as bad as they used to be and I would go as far as to say the C of E isn't far off the model I espouse.

Allowing faith schools allows children to be separated and stops different cultures from mixing. That is a crime and overrides all other considerations such as bullying which can easily be sorted out. The big picture is far more important. Get more faiths mixing and you will find that before long their will be a lot more aetheists about and the country would be a much better place.
 

[graingrover]

It's great to have freedom of speech but to use that freedom with respect for others will make for a more much more pleasant and peaceful world.