Orgreave

[Marydene Rover]

Wilts I will answer your questions, I did encounter corruption in the Police and over the years I have seen people demoted, sacked, required to resign and 3 or 4 sent to prison. A bent Police Officer is soon found in the Police environment.
I apologise if you do not have a Son because I was pretty sure that's how we first made contact. It may have been a nephew or other family member that went to Cardiff with me, I'm really not sure. You will know if you had a relative or friend at Hull University at the time of the Cardiff Cup Final who I assisted to get to the game. if I've got it wrong I apologise, I would ask you then how you know  I worked for the Humberside Police if it wasn't anything to do with the Cardiff Cup Final.
You have asked if I knew anybody who was on duty at Orgreave , I have already answered this question but will do so again, I do not know any Police Officer that was on duty at Orgreave that day. I have never discussed that matter with any of my former colleagues either. Quite why you have taken the view that either I am or may have been a bent cop I do not know. Please feel free to enlighten me.
You have said that we have never met, I agree we haven't and I didn't suggest that we had.
Your comments are absurd and deeply offensive.

[Iberian Red]

Now it's crackling

[wilts rover]

Marydene

Thank you very much for your honesty and insight into corruption in the police force, not all information that some posters put on here can be relied on to be honest I am afraid to say. Perhaps if you had informed your brother that you had personal knowledge that coruption and deception in the police did and does go on, then he may have taken a different view in his posts and we would not be having this conversation.

If my asking questions of why your brother refused to admit that the police as an institution, and as individuals, can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave offends you, then you must be quite sensitive. However thank you for clarifying your own personal non-involvement.

I can assure you no family member of mine had any contact with you relating to Cardiff. We may have come into contact when I lived in Hull, who knows. I met lots of people, I am sure you did too.

How did I know you worked for Humberside Police? Maybe I didn't and just guessed right? Maybe it was detective work?

[Marydene Rover]

Wilts I Take grave offence that you consider that I am or may be a corrupt cop. Please feel free to let me know why you have reached this conclusion.
I'm still not sure how we know each other you clearly have links to Hull. I've been based in Hull For the last 30 years and spent 25 years in Donny before that.
If it's not Cardiff how do you know me and why do you consider me corrupt.
By the way I am no at all sensitive I have lived my entire  Police career being subjected to far more abuse than you could imagine.

[IC1967]

Marydene

Thank you very much for your honesty and insight into corruption in the police force, not all information that some posters put on here can be relied on to be honest I am afraid to say. Perhaps if you had informed your brother that you had personal knowledge that coruption and deception in the police did and does go on, then he may have taken a different view in his posts and we would not be having this conversation.

If my asking questions of why your brother refused to admit that the police as an institution, and as individuals, can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave offends you, then you must be quite sensitive. However thank you for clarifying your own personal non-involvement.

I can assure you no family member of mine had any contact with you relating to Cardiff. We may have come into contact when I lived in Hull, who knows. I met lots of people, I am sure you did too.

How did I know you worked for Humberside Police? Maybe I didn't and just guessed right? Maybe it was detective work?

There you go again making claims about who I'm related to. What does it matter who I'm related to?

I have never refused to admit that the police as an institution and as individuals can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave. What an absurd statement. Check what I've said. The police were in the wrong so were the miners as I've said more than once.

The point I'm making is that you lefties just want the police holding to account and for all the guilty miners to get off scot free. That's my point if you had enough intelligence to work it out.

I'll say it again so you might get it this time. The police were guilty of wrongdoing and so were the miners. I'm quite happy for the incident to be consigned to the history books. Call it rough justice where the police and miners have both got away with it. Seems fair to me.

What is totally unfair is you lefties trying to paint the whole police force as corrupt and using any opportunity you can to slag them off.


IC1967 (a realist)

[Iberian Red]

Marydene

Thank you very much for your honesty and insight into corruption in the police force, not all information that some posters put on here can be relied on to be honest I am afraid to say. Perhaps if you had informed your brother that you had personal knowledge that coruption and deception in the police did and does go on, then he may have taken a different view in his posts and we would not be having this conversation.

If my asking questions of why your brother refused to admit that the police as an institution, and as individuals, can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave offends you, then you must be quite sensitive. However thank you for clarifying your own personal non-involvement.

I can assure you no family member of mine had any contact with you relating to Cardiff. We may have come into contact when I lived in Hull, who knows. I met lots of people, I am sure you did too.

How did I know you worked for Humberside Police? Maybe I didn't and just guessed right? Maybe it was detective work?

There you go again making claims about who I'm related to. What does it matter who I'm related to?

I have never refused to admit that the police as an institution and as individuals can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave. What an absurd statement. Check what I've said. The police were in the wrong so were the miners as I've said more than once.

The point I'm making is that you lefties just want the police holding to account and for all the guilty miners to get off scot free. That's my point if you had enough intelligence to work it out.

I'll say it again so you might get it this time. The police were guilty of wrongdoing and so were the miners. I'm quite happy for the incident to be consigned to the history books. Call it rough justice where the police and miners have both got away with it. Seems fair to me.

What is totally unfair is you lefties trying to paint the whole police force as corrupt and using any opportunity you can to slag them off.


IC1967 (a realist)

Now it sizzling,


get the tupperware, guitar and betting slips out of harms way.

[Marydene Rover]

You're a funny guy IR but I want to know why Wilts considers me be corrupt

[Marydene Rover]

By the way IR you have a crackling sense of humour

[IC1967]

IB is pig ignorant if you ask me.

IC1967 (no corruption here)

[Iberian Red]

It's secreto

[Marydene Rover]

To answer the OP Billy I think it was, I agree with you if there is evidence that the Police conducted a corrupt attempt to pervert the course of justice over Orgreave  they should be prosecuted. Those that are in a position of authority such as tha Police bear a higher requirement to do he right thing than do others. In my honest opinion.

[wilts rover]

I have already explained that Marydene. I wished to make the forum aware of why Mick may be biased on his comments regarding the police on this thread and asked him if you were involved in Orgreave. Which has been shown to have involved a great deal of police corruption. You gave a clear answer to that and a lot more besides. If you wish to read any more into it then that, fine, but you are I am afraid reading too much into the question.

If I reveal how I know who you and IC1967 are, then I will need to give away who both you are he are, which I dont believe is a wise thing. Too many nutters out there.

[BobG]

Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.

Cheers

BobG

PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...

[IC1967]

Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.

Cheers

BobG

PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...

Look daft Bob. I think the way you have been behaving is totally ridiculous. You make an even bigger fool of yourself every time you post.

For the record I have not taken down any contact details. My account is exactly the same as its always been. Get the mods to confirm this if you don't believe me. Once you've done this I expect an immediate abject apology.

Right, I think its time to find out what the forum thinks. I will abide by the decision. Will you? I'm going to put a poll up to sort this out once and for all. You obviously are deluded enough into thinking you are popular around here. Well lets put it to the test.

IC1967 (feeling sorry for sad Bob)

[les@donr]

My foster brother was a pc during and at the miners strike, he'd brag that Arthur Scargill had paid for his kitchen refit from all the overtime he did during the strike. He bought into Thatcherism that the miners were "the enemy", he was happy for the paybacks he was getting. I never agreed with him on anything, certainly not over the miners strike. I saw the Police as Thatcher's Private Army during the Miners Strike.

Their behaviour at Orgreave was both despicable and unlawful, when will the Police who attached and injured miners be brought to justice?

[idler]

I knew a sergeant in the Met. He felt sorry for the miners but said some fellow officers were almost crooks.
He got injured when a miner threw a housebrick at his back and had to have time off.  He still had sympathy for them though.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Their behaviour at Orgreave was both despicable and unlawful, when will the Police who attached and injured miners be brought to justice?

The last thing the authorities want (even if they sympathise with the victims) is for a straight line to be able to be drawn from doctored statements in 1985 to doctored statements in 1989...because that will immedately call into question any convictions between those dates (and probably beyond). Any lawyers worth their salt will be all over those cases trying to get cases overturned - and who knows who might have to be let out as a result. And that is the reason I believe the current Home Secretary tried to kill off the Orgreave issue once and for all last year.

[bally1950]

Their behaviour at Orgreave was both despicable and unlawful, when will the Police who attached and injured miners be brought to justice?

The last thing the authorities want (even if they sympathise with the victims) is for a straight line to be able to be drawn from doctored statements in 1985 to doctored statements in 1989...because that will immedately call into question any convictions between those dates (and probably beyond). Any lawyers worth their salt will be all over those cases trying to get cases overturned - and who knows who might have to be let out as a result. And that is the reason I believe the current Home Secretary tried to kill off the Orgreave issue once and for all last year.

Well Glyn. The current Home Secretary who is deffinately no lover of the Police, tried to stop a further action, this time Orgreave, which I have stated on another thread. The IPCC have made their decision on whether or not there should be an enquiry until after the decision of the jury in the Inquest made their decision, it is now that time, it is the IPCC who are delaying.

I just hope that they run Orgreave when 10,000 miners faced 5,000. First question...."Why were there 10,000 there in the first place that caused the confrontation.
Question two. What was hoped it would gain.  Maybe a member of the NUM at the time may answer. Before we have any crap about me...I worked at Armthorpe Police Station.during the strike and played rugby right through it with Markham RUFC (Pit Team and mainly miners) They did their thing and I did mine. I went to jobs in the middle of the night and as soon as I got out of the car the bricks came flying. I was there when a group of brave boys dragged a single female out of a Police car and nocked shit out of her. So let me just get that bit in first, before we have talk of corruption. You kick a dog too many times and he will bite you. Well the Police bit back

[bally1950]

Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.

Cheers

BobG

PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...

Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well the Police bit back

If by biting back the police fabricated evidence then as you sow so shall ye reap.

I'm not getting into who did what at Orgreave, I don't know and I don't care.

What I do care about is that if it can be shown that fabricating or doctoring evidence wasn't just a one-off in 1989 but had already been done in 1985, it starts looking like a standard practice and every conviction based upon SYP evidence in between those dates can be argued to be unsafe. The possible consequences of that are horrendous and have an outcome way beyond just the events of Orgreave and Hillsborough; and affect society as a whole not just policemen, miners and/or football supporters.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.

Cheers

BobG

PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...

Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.

It's not you he's talking about, it's another forum user.

[bally1950]

Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.

Cheers

BobG



PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...

Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.

It's not you he's talking about, it's another forum user.

Thanks for clearing that up.  On your previous post. You will not find me disagreeing. If it was corrupt practice  then the corrupt should suffer the consequences. Police biting back, I refer to acting against those at Orgreave who were throwing the hail of bricks, Several died in the Miners strike, two, it was proven beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT were cause by the actions of miners, one at Ollerton and one in Wales with bricks being thrown at passing cars below of miners who had returned to work, the first at Ollerton was on picket duty and IF I REMEMBER correctly was hit from the back by a brick, no doubt someone on this forum may know better, but at Ollerton the Police from various forces were facing the pickets

[wilts rover]

Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.

Cheers

BobG

PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...

Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.

It's not you he's talking about, it's another forum user.

That's correct. This post has been resurrected from 2015 and the Mick we are refering to was a somewhat contrary and argumentative poster around at the time. In this thread he was discussing the conduct of the police and police corruption, without revealing that his brother had been a serving police officer and played a (minor) role in a corruption investigation and trial.

His brother was somewhat more honest and forthright, like yourself Bally. Maybe its an ex-police thing. I dont always agree with what you say, but I do believe you are being honest and truthful in expressing your opinions and making an interesting debate.

Carry on now...

[bally1950]

Thank you.

[Glyn_Wigley]

On your previous post. You will not find me disagreeing. If it was corrupt practice  then the corrupt should suffer the consequences.

My point was that it won't be just the corrupt that would suffer...even if evidence gathering was carried out according to the proper practice at the time, any convictions dependent upon SYP evidence could be argued to be unsafe because of evidence being fabricated by the SYP on an apparently routine basis - and God knows who may get released from prison as result. And who migh suffer from that? - it's the public at large, who may be endangered, because you know as well as I do that innocence would not need to be shown but merely that a conviction was unsafe.

How would you feel if you'd collared a murderer or rapist that was let out under such circumstances?

[bally1950]

I collared a rapist on 31.12 1974 just 2 months after being on the beat. He raped someone I grew up with at knife point. I found him and bearing in mind we were told that he had a knife, where it was and he went for it. He got some Ballism which was mentioned at the trial, plus his wife left him taking his child, all put forward by defence, so although he went to prison for rape..(Because of the circumstances) he only served 2 years. I still see that lady around Hatfield.

That is just one. I know what you are saying and I agree totally with you. I am also aware of the grounds that are going to be put forward ref Orgreave, but again "Why were there 10,000 striking miners there and what was the objective. It was weeks of confrontation and it was the day of the show down, just like 14th February 1980 was at The Vulcan Road Sheffield in Steel Strike. We can go on for ever but it is not going to help. Now yesterday in Germany the tactics used by the Police were accepted so as is....God only knows what uproar there would be in dear old Blighty.. In the case of Hillsborough. People died because of a bag of wind. The miners strike and Orgreave was caused by two individuals. Scargill and Thatcher. Everybody else was a pawn in their argument. AND WHAT HAS BEEN GAINED ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

As I said, I don't know what happened at Orgreave and don't care - it's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. Unless you think that 10,000 miners being there (if indeed there were) is grounds enough for the fabricating of evidence by the organisation which is supposed to be the model of probity and integrity and which is supposed to uphold the Law and not flout it (which is the only thing I do care about because of the possible consquences I've alrady mentioned)?

[bally1950]

10,000 is the figure banded about since the day. Like you I do not care. But as many believe it was just SYP there, nope there were many forces sending Police, and I will tell you what that nobody has mentioned recently, the fact that there were soldiers there in Police Uniforms. Lets go the whole hog. Are you aware of the grounds where corruption is alleged

[Glyn_Wigley]

10,000 is the figure banded about since the day. Like you I do not care. But as many believe it was just SYP there, nope there were many forces sending Police, and I will tell you what that nobody has mentioned recently, the fact that there were soldiers there in Police Uniforms. Lets go the whole hog. Are you aware of the grounds where corruption is alleged

No, I don't know if any evidence was fabricated, all I know is that it has been alleged - which to me makes it merit investigation. However, I'm worried about the big picture if it is proven to have taken place. I'm also worried about what will happen if the allegations are just brushed aside or buried because like Hillsborough it will just fester on and on without resolution.

[bally1950]

Well then. Like other retired SYP I welcome the IPCC to carry out enquiry.