Calais

[idler]

I'm sorry Bob but if you came to Bradford and saw the strain on education, health and housing you might change your view.
The amounts spent on translators alone is enormous. The number of different languages spoken is incredible. The biggest problem at the moment is the number of young Eastern Europeans.
My wife was a nurse and my daughter is a teacher so come across problems on a daily basis.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm sure they do, but don't fall for the usual Tory cynicism of making swingeing cuts and then blaming something else (in this case immigrants) when the effect of those cuts starts to become apparent.

[idler]

I realise that the council were forced to make cuts after the government reduced their payments but even so the number of people in Bradford that speak very little English is amazing. This costs untold amounts.
Teaching English to children is hard enough but when more than half the class speak it as a second language it becomes very hard.

[BobG]

I think I was taking a slightly wider view than the problems within a single parish Idler

Bob

[idler]

But in how many parishes is this repeated Bob?
Our country is made up of parishes.
My two oldest grandsons have just returned from Dubai. They have always gone to private school and now enrolled for Bradford Grammar. The eldest has just achieved 9as levels,  3a and one b in his gcse's.
He wants to go to Cambridge and possibly will.
My two youngest grandchildren, one boy (11) and girl (12) go to a poor state school in inner Bradford. They are brightish kids but will never achieve anything like their cousins will. It is these two that are likely to miss out due to large classes and then lack of jobs.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler

Large classes and lack of jobs are not caused by immigrants. As I've said before, there is categorical evidence that migrants put more into society (cash wise) than they take out.

If we are not putting enough of that money into schools, the blame lies with the Govt and the people who voted for them. Not with immigrants.

[idler]

I was in classes of 35 or so all through school. The difference was we all spoke English as a first language and also knew that when we left school there were jobs for us.
This is definitely not the case now. I don't see how with unemployment as it is allowing a family in that can neither read,write or speak English can help our economy. Some will prosper but lots more will settle for the better life that they can have even without working. If the government spent more on education what cuts would fund this. Education has been a political football for years and needs a radical rethink.

[Iberian Red]

If you lived where I live you might have a totally different opinions idler

[idler]

I'm in Spain next month and after watching Fuengarola last week on the TV it could be a bit different to what I was expecting.

[Iberian Red]

I recommend a visit to either the bus or train staions! 

[idler]

I was thinking of a train trip at some stage.

[glosterred]

I was thinking of a train trip at some stage.

Then a train station is a good place to start

[idler]

Not much gets past you Gloster. 😉

[Iberian Red]

What about if he wants a bus?

[idler]

I could get a bus to the train station and kill two birds with one stone.
Am I best getting back before dark. 😉

[Iberian Red]

I could get a bus to the train station and kill two birds with one stone.
Am I best gretting back before dark. 😉

The last English man to do that round these parts is currently seving life. So I'd say no

[idler]

I bow to your superior knowledge Iberian. 😎

[wheatleylad]

Australia had this problem a few years ago. They solved it by intercepting the boats at sea, rendering aid where it was necessary and then towing them back to the point of departure.

The current influx of Syrian refugees into Greece is totally unnecessary. They have crossed a peaceful, Islamic state to get there. Why do they not stay there? They are economic migrants. Those purely seeking safety have achieved it upon crossing the Turkish border.

[wilts rover]

Did they really wheatleylad?

According to recent news reports, which the Australian PM has refused to deny, the Australian government pays the people running the migrant boats to turn back. Which of course they do. And if you were a people smuggler knowing you would get a fee for reaching Australian waters - would you stop or try harder?

It is estimated around 1000 people a day cross the Turkish border. That's something like 250000 so far this year. Where do you think 250000 can be accomodated in Turkey?

I have said it before and will repeat again, it is impossible to solve the migrant crisis at it's end point, the only way it will stop is when the countries these people are from are made safe to live in.

[Nudga]

George W and Blair have a lot of blood on their hands.
Greed.power.oil. corruption.war. dead dictators. Millions homeless. Millions dead.

[BobG]

Absolutely Nudga. IT's fascinating in the extreme how not one single bugger anywhere has remarked in the press, on tv or on the radio that the responsibility for this shambles lies fair and square with the West, and most especially with the USA and its poodle off the coast of Europe.

This has been 20 years and more in the making. If there isn't a resolution to both Syria and IS over the course of this winter it next spring is going to see it all happen again. This is just about the best argument I've ever heard for targetting the other sides' top bloke. Benthamism rides again.

BobG

[glosterred]

George W and Blair have a lot of blood on their hands.
Greed.power.oil. corruption.war. dead dictators. Millions homeless. Millions dead.

Not forgetting the blood on the hands of the dead dictators

[The Red Baron]

George W and Blair have a lot of blood on their hands.
Greed.power.oil. corruption.war. dead dictators. Millions homeless. Millions dead.

You can actually argue both ways. You can argue that Western intervention in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya has made matters worse and helped to produce the current migration crisis. Equally you can argue that a lack of intervention against the Assad regime has made Syria less secure and stable.

The problem is that where we have removed dictators we haven't really put in place any structures to maintain security. That, of course, takes a long time and requires a long term financial and military commitment. Even if the Western politicians had desired that, there was no appetite in their home countries for it.

[BobG]

Which, surely John, is one great big huge argument for not getting involved in the first place then?

Hmmm....

BobG

[The Red Baron]

Bob

I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. There was a strong case for intervening in Afghanistan, because it was basically a lawless state and a haven for Al-Qaeda. Although it might be argued that we left it in not much better state than we found it.

I always felt that the West's interventions in Iraq and Lybia were more about settling old scores than anything else. And Saddam and Gadaffi were always a bigger problem for their own people and their neighbours than they were for the West. My argument is that if you are going to replace them then you have to be prepared to hold the ring in those countries until a home-bred government with broad support is able to take power. Otherwise you either replace one dictator with another, or you get anarchy. That is a very costly, long-term exercise and sounds uncomfortably like Imperialism to modern ears.

In Syria on balance it was probably as well that we didn't intervene, as we would have intervened on the wrong side. At least we would from the way we see it now. Had we intervened against the Assad regime, we would just have helped to clear the way for IS, or whatever they are called this week.

I see that George Osborne was making the case for military intervention in Syria again. It does seem nonsense to try to degrade IS in Iraq but not in Syria. However he also said the plan was to target Assad. If we do that we may well make the situation worse, especially as I don't see any desire to put troops into Syria.

[BobG]

I am continually amazed by the reactive nature of our foreign policies. Today, for example, I saw our revered and much loved Prime Minister on the goggle box wittering on about the 'moral duty' of the nation to accept nasty foreign refugees into this country and how Britain will 'do its duty' and other such maunderings. Yet it's only 10 days ago that this same revered and much loved Prime Minister was blathering on about 'never shall they darken our doorstep'.  Mind you, coming up with a nice big number like 20,000 wins the soft hearted over while then writing in the small print that that number will only be achieved in 5 years time keeps the right wing nutters on side too. Clever. But it overlooks one teeny little fact: that the refugee crisis is right now.

Clearly, at the very least the bloke doesn't understand the nature of morality. We all know, of course, that it's politics really. But just how cynical can he get??? But then, the Tory party has always been full of it. Here's another one:

Britain: the country that accepted Michael Portillo's refugee parents. Britain the country that educated Michael Portillo. Britain the country that allows Michael Portillo to state, publicly, that today's refugees should be "sent back where they came from" by being "dumped on a Libyan beach".

Nice one Michael. Bit of a humanist are we...?

BobG

[BRMC_rover]

IC19who cares... It's good to see that you are again looking to score points by offering radical and provocative thoughts. Nice to see you still use real life events of this magnitude to give yourself a good old pat on the back. Your posts are no longer the ramblings of an idiot, your just full blown satire now. Your the loose semen of a Murdoch inspired media, spouting the boring, fear fuelled rhetoric and naive nonsense your served up.

Cameron is now planning to bomb his way out of this situation. Hmm. That will result in more refugees. Tory's destroying yet more inferior classes? Nah.

[donnyproletarian]

I suspect that IC would not personally pull the trigger on the gun to sink a boat containing women and children but would be happy for someone else to do it .This is the same for most  politicians .However, for the ex servicemen it is a different tale .Visit any city centre to see the forgotten homeless soldiers who are messed up with post traumatic stress disorder after witnessing atrocities on a mass scale .I wonder how many people IC has killed ?

Politicians like Blair and others ,were quite happy to send us into an illegal war based upon a lie which has led to catastrophic consequences for the current situation .

It takes a picture of a child being dragged from the sea to make us realise the scale of the issue .They are not economic refugees or migrants but human beings  who by an accident of birth have been born in a different part of the world .We collectively owe a duty of care to help these people who for the grace of god could be us .My sister from Rotherham carers is currently collecting and delivering clothes and food to France .She has yet to report being stabbed or raped but has been met with nothing but gratitude.Even the pope has got in on the act and asked parishes to support at least one family each .Camerons u turn on accepting further immigration signifies the change in public pressure and change in direction .I wonder what UKIPS response would be to this humanitarian crisis which through public opinion even the Tories can't ignore