Paris

[Filo]

Think it needs to be invoked asap

Should have been invoked when Turkey was attacked, surely?

That ould require Turkey to invoke it?

[glosterred]

France has activated the EU equivalent of NATO Article 5

BRUSSELS — European Union nations on Tuesday unanimously backed a French request for support with military missions in the wake of the Paris attacks, after France invoked a previously unused part of the bloc's treaties to seek help.

France, which launched new airstrikes against Islamic State militants in Syria after Friday's bloodshed, used a little-known article in the EU's Lisbon Treaty which provides for solidarity in the event one of them is attacked.

"Today France demanded the aid and assistance of the whole of Europe. And today the whole of Europe replied in unison 'yes'," Mogherini told a joint press conference with French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian.

"It is an article that has never been used before in the history of our union."

The EU's Article 42-7 is similar to NATO's Article 5, which the United States activated after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to trigger the US-led alliance's intervention in Afghanistan.

From defencenews

[Sprotyrover]

Well I personally believe that we the collective Forces of the civilised world need to take urgent and decisive action to destroy the Daesh foothold in the Levant which is funding their current activities and providing safety training and succour for their fighters, we also need to get Syria sorted to stop the refugee crisis and stabilise Northern Iraq.
We do that with a joint international task force to take back the land controlled by Daesh. There are a lot of tosspots in Daesh territory who should not be in Syria they need rounding up,into heaps and incinerating,Bosniaks,Kosovans,Chechens,Pakistani,Bangladeshi,Yemeni,Algerian, Caucasian  maniacs etc.
Do it in force close all of the Bolt holes and KICK ASS,

[RobTheRover]

So does anyone think we will see some terrorist activity in London Tomorrow night?

I think security will be as tight as a drum.

I was in London on Monday and Tuesday for the New Order gig in Brixton.  Security was apparent everywhere.  Armed police everywhere on my journey from Kings Cross via Holborn and on to Brixton.  Some guy, clearly an "under the radar" agency operative was on the little balcony on the right as you leave Brixton tube station and was scanning faces on the people climbing the stairs.  He had some weird glasses on , presumably incorporating some facial recognition ability.  I've seen cops with guns in London an many occasions, and they tend to have stubby P5-type machine guns.  All the ones I saw had longer, more serious looking kit on them.

At the gig on Monday night security was also high.  I had my ticket checked 4 times before getting into the venue.  The first check was probably 100 yards from Brixton Academy.  Then again whilst in the queue, then scanned whilst still outside (accompanied by a thorough patting down) and then checked again inside to make sure the I was in the right part of the venue.  They clearly wanted to know who was in and in the right place.

[drfchound]

Rob, how long can people keep up that level of security checking at every venue in the country though?
After a while it all goes back to normal and them the terrorist strikes again.
As is being discussed on another thread, serious measures against IS have to be taken in an attempt to wipe them off the Earth.
Lots of people are saying what shouldnt be done but anyone who makes a suggestion about bombing or sending troops in is getting "shot down" (no pun) without much in the way of an alternative being put forward.

[Hounslowrover]

How about starting with the wells and pipelines IS use to sell oil on the black market.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound

You know the other night when I said that the first part of my answer is to retain a sense of perspective?

Your comment "After a while it all goes back to normal and them the terrorist strikes again" kind of sums up what I was talking about.

Again? We haven't had a mass casualty event in the UK in more than a decade. We've had only 4 in the whole of the Western world in the past 14 years. Maybe 4-500 deaths in total.

In that time, how many people have been killed by "normal" criminals? By car crashes? By cigs and booze? 

Perspective.

[drfchound]

But Billy, car crashes (in the main),cigs and booze are not pre meditated murders by terrorists are they.
I go back to my point that there are not any projected options for stopping the spread of IS.
Surely you can seemy point.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound

I don't see what your point is. A life is a life is a life.

I've just got back from 2 weeks working in the States. I'll give you a perfect example of the mad lack of perspective. I was talking to a couple at the hotel I was staying at. They were both emotional about the Paris attacks and were saying that they were praying for the people in Europe. They call it a "continent under attack". They were astonished that I wasn't scared to death at the thought of returning to Europe.

We got talking about gun crime in America. The guy was carrying a gun. He passionately spoke about his "right to defend himself and his family" and said that we Europeans didn't understand. He genuinely thought we we mad to have such draconian gun laws.

128 people were killed in Paris. About 400 have been killed by terrorists in the whole Westetn World since 2001. Typically, 30,000 people a year are killed by guns in the States. That'd be about 400,000 since 9/11. Or 575 since last Friday.

Perspective. It is REALLY important. Because when you don't have perspective, when you lash out emotionally without rational assessment, you make REALLY bad decisions. And you stoke up really bad scenarios for the future.

[BobG]

To reinforce Billy's point: in 1976 I spent some time at Tulane University in New Orleans. It was a nice place. It's a nice town too. I enjoyed myself quite a lot. One night, in one of the bars at the university, I ended up talking to a couple of postgrad students. I was a mere undergrad of course. The subject turned, as it often did back then, to the fears and worries about the cold war, about the Soviet Union and about the potential for nuclear disaster.  And then one of these, allegedly highly intelligent, beings made the immortal remark "Gee! Aren't you scared living so close to the Russians?"

I have never, ever forgotten that statement. It says so damn much. It says so damn much about perspective. It says so damn much about ignorance - mine, yours, his, ours, theirs. It says so damn much about decision making everywhere.....

Don't trust your atavistic instincts. Somebody once advised me that 'At times of stress, avoid making as many decisions as you possibly can. You won't make many good ones and you will have the rest of your life to regret making all the bad ones'.

He was dead right. I've made some bad ones over the years at times of stress.... We are all stressed right now.  The politicians are rushing to be seen to be doing 'something'. It is a major mistake. What makes it even more sad is that we have had quite a lot of examples in recent years of the consequences of doing exactly that. Folk don't learn do they?

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

One of the most sensible sets of comments on the topic I've yet heard. Ex CIA head talking about the balance between military action and softer aspects - taking the fertilised soil away.

07:15 onwards here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06q6t1q/newsnight-19112015

[drfchound]

All fine words lads but i still haven't seen you giving an opinion on what you think should be done to stop the IS terrorism trail.
Yes, i agree that a life is a life, is a life, of course i do.
However, measures have to be taken to stop IS.
Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?
Many people lost their lives in that conflict but the alternative for not fighting would have been much worse.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?

With leaders that would want to drop lots of bombs on civilians?

[Bentley Bullet]

Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?

With leaders that would want to drop lots of bombs on civilians?

Of course the leaders don't want to drop bombs on civilians, but when fighting against an invisible enemy it is an inevitable occurrence - unless of course, you have a better idea?

[The Red Baron]

Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?

With leaders that would want to drop lots of bombs on civilians?

Sounds to me like you think IS should have a free hand in Syria and Iraq. And no, I don't think we should target areas with large numbers of civilians, although IS have driven many of them out.

Although for me targeted air strikes are only part of the picture. Only ground troops will deal with IS fully in those areas they occupy. The question is- who is able or willing to commit those troops and what are their objectives?

[drfchound]

TRB, i also agree that selective bombing isn't the only solution.
Going back to the Hitler thing, the Nazi party began in a small way but grew rapidly and we all know where that led.
Thank God that our leaders in 1939 didnt pussy foot around.
I hope that the men in power this time dont leave it too late to go in to smash IS.

[Filo]

TRB, i also agree that selective bombing isn't the only solution.
Going back to the Hitler thing, the Nazi party began in a small way but grew rapidly and we all know where that led.
Thank God that our leaders in 1939 didnt pussy foot around.
I hope that the men in power this time dont leave it too late to go in to smash IS.

Our leaders did pussyfoot around in 1939, Hitler was allowed to take the Balkans unopposed, Chamberlian went Berlin to appease the Germans, came back waving a bit of bog roll in the air saying peace in our time. It was only by treaty that we were forced to declare war on the invasion of Poland

[drfchound]

Ok, so i was a bit out with 1939 but your reply kind of emphasises what i am saying.
IS is spreading its wings faster than we dare believe and we (the world outside of IS) need to act now to prevent them doing what the Nazis did back then.

[The Red Baron]

TRB, i also agree that selective bombing isn't the only solution.
Going back to the Hitler thing, the Nazi party began in a small way but grew rapidly and we all know where that led.
Thank God that our leaders in 1939 didnt pussy foot around.
I hope that the men in power this time dont leave it too late to go in to smash IS.

Our leaders did pussyfoot around in 1939, Hitler was allowed to take the Balkans unopposed, Chamberlian went Berlin to appease the Germans, came back waving a bit of bog roll in the air saying peace in our time. It was only by treaty that we were forced to declare war on the invasion of Poland

Indeed they did, Filo, and up to the point that war broke out those like Churchill who said Hitler had to be confronted were in the minority.

I don't think that's the case with IS, but it is worth remembering that Chamberlain, Stanley Baldwin and the other "appeasers" recoiled from the horrors of WW1. Many of us are wary of intervention after the mistakes made in Iraq, Libya and Syria itself. But IS do need to be dealt with and in concert with Russia and friendly Arab states we need to work out the best ways to do it.

[i_ateallthepies]

What is frightening about the WW2 comparison is that Hitler was able to cause such a conflict without the advantage that IS have, that of religious fanaticism.

With the numbers of Muslims around the world and large numbers of them embedded in western societies, that surely is an infinitely more difficult problem to overcome than ever we had in WW2.

[i_ateallthepies]

Andrew Neil's opening remarks on his 'This Week' programme.  Unashamedly populist but doubtless captures the mood of most decent folks.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0ahUKEwi388L6vZ_JAhXM1RoKHYFjDYgQtwIIOTAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fglobal%2Fvideo%2F2015%2Fnov%2F20%2Fandrew-neil-islamist-scumbags-isis-paris-video&usg=AFQjCNFfQ5pSbyxSpmCMB-DSeyv73vTOSg&bvm=bv.108194040,d.ZWU

[drfchound]

Andrew Neil could be my new hero.

I see Islamist Scumbags (they have claimed responsibility along with Al Queda) have killed another group of innocents in Mali today?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't think any of us has an axe to grind for Islamist terrorists.

It's not a question of whether you want to remove them or not. It's a question of
a) how you do it
and
b) how you do it without generating the hatred that will produce the next generation of terrorists.

If you have no sensible answer to b) but you still want to carpet bomb and inter willy-nilly, you're not advocating a solution. You are indulging a pointless and self-defeating lust for retribution.

[neil grainger]

I don't think any of us has an axe to grind for Islamist terrorists.

It's not a question of whether you want to remove them or not. It's a question of
a) how you do it
and
b) how you do it without generating the hatred that will produce the next generation of terrorists.

If you have no sensible answer to b) but you still want to carpet bomb and inter willy-nilly, you're not advocating a solution. You are indulging a pointless and self-defeating lust for retribution.

No BST, you talk to them don't you?

Let's find the main guys at the top of the IS chain of command and invite them to a meeting, so that we can talk about our differences and come to an agreement.

I'm sure that once we've sat around the table and sorted things out, there will be no more atrocities, beheadings, rapes or murders by IS.
Their demands are reasonable and their grievances are understandable.
And their means of seeking justice are completely justifiable.

Let's chat! These guys just want to negotiate!

[neil grainger]

There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.


I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.

These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.

It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?

Oh, not this b*llocks again!!

Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?

Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?

No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.

See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?

It's your argument that's crap Glyn!

When did you last hear of a group of "C of E'rs" walking into a theatre and gunning down 90 people in the name of God?
And justifying their murders in God's name?

Shame on you.

Show me where the accused rapists said they committed the crime you're talking about was done 'in the name of God' and you might actually have a point.

Right Glyn, take out of the discussion the 'alleged' rapists of the young girl in Keighley and let's return to the Paris attacks.

They were carried out by IS....that stands for 'Islamic State'.
Now please justify your comments about the Archbishop of Canterbury failing to condemn every crime committed by a "C of E-R".

I'm intrigued.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Neil

I'm not sure why I bother posting on here. You've obviously decided what you think I think, rather than actually read what I've said.

http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=255026.msg587632#msg587632

"Be vigilant and strong. Take out the active terrorists when you can."

What scares the hell out of me is that intelligent people, like you, respond to a Paris incident in a way that would GUARANTEE that we'll still be dealing with this problem in 100 years time.

Earlier this year, after the Tunisia attack, I posted a (100% factual) message about how we are currently living through an age in which violent death is by historical standards, very rare. You got upset about that. You said it was totally inappropriate of me to post that message on that day.

Now, I said at the time that it honestly had not dawned on me that there was any correlation between the news that day and that post. But to be honest, if I HAD realised any correlation, I would have pushed it very hard. Because that is PRECISELY the point. We DO live in an era where violent death is very rare. There has never been a decade in the past 1000 years in which fewer people in Europe have died through violence than the decade 2005-2015.

And THAT is what I mean by bloody perspective. A knee-jerk reaction to IS is EXACTLY what they want. They want us to add more fuel to the fire and burn the whole f**king lot of us.

Me, I want us to engage our f**king brains before we dive into the cess pit.

[wilts rover]

Neil, what has been the reaction in the Islamic world to the Paris attacks?

I will give you some help with the answer (or The Independent last week will)

Muslim leaders around the world have condemned the Paris attacks that left 127 people dead and as many as 80 people fighting for their lives in critical conditions.

Many of the denunciations came before Isis released a statement claiming responsibility for the attacks that have devastated the French capital and left many reeling.

Iran’s president Hassan Rouhani condemned the attacks, calling them a “crime against humanity” and said he would postpone his plan to visit France as part of a wider European trip this weekend.

The foreign minister for Qatar, Khaled al-Attiyah, labelled the atrocities “heinous”.

Joko Widodo, the leader of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim country, said his nation “condemns the violence that took place in Paris.”

Kuwaiti Emir Sheikh Sabah al-Sabah said the “criminal acts of terrorism” run “counter to all teachings of holy faith and humanitarian values.”

In the UK, leader of the Muslim Council of Great Britain Dr Shuja Shafi, condemned the attacks “in the strongest possible terms,” labelling them “horrific and abhorrent”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/paris-terror-muslim-leaders-around-the-world-condemn-heinous-attacks-a6734711.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts. You are wasting your breath. We get this EVERY f**kING TIME.

Why don't Muslim leaders condemn X?

And every f**king time, if you Google "Muslim leaders condemning X" you get hit after hit after f**king hit.

I can only assume that the people who complain about Muslim leaders really REALLY don't want to hear about them being sensible, caring, intelligent human beings.

[BobG]

LIe has been said before Billy, emotion has replaced thinking has replaced policy.... We are, undoubetdly, condemned to a vicious cycle of vengeance for me, vengance for you, vengeance for him. We've had 15 eyars of it so far with sod all result except make the thing 100 times worse. Now we seem to have reached the fatuous solution adopted by the Israealis and referred to many, many posts ago. Like I said, Festung Europa is upon us. And much good will it do us.

BobG

[Glyn_Wigley]

Right Glyn, take out of the discussion the 'alleged' rapists of the young girl in Keighley and let's return to the Paris attacks.

They were carried out by IS....that stands for 'Islamic State'.
Now please justify your comments about the Archbishop of Canterbury failing to condemn every crime committed by a "C of E-R".

I'm intrigued.

No, let's NOT take the case of the alleged rapists out of it - YOU put it there, and it's the entire reason I posted what I did. Because YOU wanted some sort of religion-based apology from an Imam regarding a case that is non-religious (and not even proven yet), and therefore by inference would want an apology from an Imam for every crime committed by someone Islamic, I turned such a demand back onto Christianity to show how ridiculous your demand was - and by demanding it from those of Islamic faith only, have you any idea how that makes you look?

I wonder why you demanded it in the first place. As you say, I'm intrigued.