South stand Saturday

[philsky]

I wasn't able to get to the match but now can and am.

Alongwith Andy and Lewis - a modest carful from London.

Enjoyed Southend but this late action has eliminated my south stand hopes.

Better to be anywhere in the stadium that nowhere mind !

[Padge_DRFC]

I suggest anyone including myself wishing you stand up in the middle back 10 rows gets there early then on Saturday. Don't be disappointed if you turn up at 2.57 and aren't allowed to stand in the gangway halfway down.

[Copps is Magic]

Check your PMs phil.

[DRFC]

I'm not ignoring the good practice, I'm asking the reasoning behind the different capacity between reserved and unreserved in the same space with the same amount of seats

Like trying to get a quart into a pint pot.

[wilts rover]

Wasn't the overcrowding at Hillsborough due to opening the gates and letting uncontrolled numbers into the Leppings Lane?  That isn't what Filo is talking about though is it...  And his logic is perfectly reasonable, you know how many people are allowed into that part of the ground, there is space for all of them.  If a portion of them choose to sardine-pack themselves into less space than they have purchased then that frees up the space needed as overflow.

So, contrary to what has been said about standing potentially increasing the capacity, the truth is it is being given as the cause of having to reduce capacity.  Nice!

That is correct - and then if a problem occurs in that area there is a potential disaster in the making that may ultimately end in people dying. As you say, Nice!

Hence a greater safety margin has to be left. Theoretically there will be one person to a seat, but actually quite a few will be crowded into the centre section back rows, and there will be empty seats elsewhere.

If people could be trusted to behave there wouldn't be a problem. But they can't. Any problem in this crowded central area, the more people there are the more time it takes for the safety officers/stewards/medical staff/St John's/police etc, to get to them.

With the recent number of incidents our numpties letting off pyros you can certainly see why the club has been forced to reduce capacity.

[hoolahoop]

I happen to agree with Dave (Filo) in that if you have built a stadium and given an area a specific capacity then overflow areas should already be built into the layout .

Sorry SM , I just don't buy your argument because if the spectators press to a certain area for whatever reason then they naturally free up another area surely ? As for numpties wilts rover can you please give it a rest otherwise you risk tarring all our support with the same brush.

[IDM]

If you stick to reserved seating then in theory everyone should be in the allocated seat,therefore no need for spare space.  If you say you can sit where you want, then folks will choose the seats with the best view/noise/with their mates etc.  This will mean undoubtedly there are some areas that folks won't want to sit at, or will move to during the game where for example they wish to go to a seat with a better view because of standers, or to move kids away from the rowdier elements.  Just like you could do on standing terraces.  I have no issue with such movement, but that needs spaces for folks to move into.

Take the Fulham league cup game last season.  I had an allocated seat but I wanted to sit further back for a better view.  At kick off, I looked up and there were plenty of extra seats to move to.  Had there been an allocated seating 100% sell out, I couldn't have moved.

I am not familiar with all the reports etc on stadia that SM refers to, but I do sort of get why unallocated seating means capacity becomes less than the total number of seats.

[IDM]

I think there is also a difference between the unallocated seating/capacity issue, and that of standing.

[philsky]

Check your PMs phil.

Have done.

Grateful for information.

[Copps is Magic]

With the recent number of incidents our numpties letting off pyros you can certainly see why the club has been forced to reduce capacity.

It's a regulation that has existed for many years. Nothing to do with pyros.

[silent majority]

I happen to agree with Dave (Filo) in that if you have built a stadium and given an area a specific capacity then overflow areas should already be built into the layout .

Sorry SM , I just don't buy your argument because if the spectators press to a certain area for whatever reason then they naturally free up another area surely ? As for numpties wilts rover can you please give it a rest otherwise you risk tarring all our support with the same brush.

Hoola, you're missing the point. Its not about freeing up areas and congregating in others. Its about trying to get 3,000 people into exactly 3,000 seats and avoiding the congregating. Congregation is dangerous and would lead to injury and the closure of the stadium. Now, getting 3,000 people into allocated seats is difficult enough but getting 3,00 people but in an unallocated seated area is very difficult, if not impossible. And thats the point. If you want to do it safely then you need to aqllocate all the seats and make sure people take up their seat, if they dont want to then you have to cut the numbers.

I'm not sure how you think that having overcrowded areas is OK, its not. What happens is people migrate to the gangways causing major issues. When crowds surge people get knocked over and death can follow, just like this Stoke City fan.

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Family-Stoke-City-fan-Mabel-Smith-fight-truth/story-19582240-detail/story.html

As you know I'm a big fan of getting standing back in stadiums, but it must be done safely and with due regard to numbers. In most stadiums where clubs are allowing 'singing sections' then the numbers of seats sold per row are reduced, usually by at least one on the end of each row. The reason is that people standing take up more room and to allow for that they cut the numbers. Which is exactly what we have done!

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I'm glad we got that sorted. There's a balance to be had and consideration has to be given to whether to withdraw the benefits of unreserved seating in favour of maximising 1 seat/1 person.

This match, although likely to be well attended, was unlikely to be oversubscribed therefore, the decision not to compromise the Black Bank by making it reserved was the right thing to do.

There are still unsold seats in the stadium so it's unlikely there will be a total sell out. The club are selling seats in a controlled way so we'll get the best of both worlds.

I wonder if the prawn sarnie area will be fully occupied.

[silent majority]

Wasn't the overcrowding at Hillsborough due to opening the gates and letting uncontrolled numbers into the Leppings Lane?  That isn't what Filo is talking about though is it...  And his logic is perfectly reasonable, you know how many people are allowed into that part of the ground, there is space for all of them.  If a portion of them choose to sardine-pack themselves into less space than they have purchased then that frees up the space needed as overflow.

So, contrary to what has been said about standing potentially increasing the capacity, the truth is it is being given as the cause of having to reduce capacity.  Nice!

No. The Leppings Lane end (and I mean the whole of that end) wasn't overcrowded and the numbers entering the stadium that day did not exceed the safe capacity. What happened was that people were left to find their own way into the terracing causing overcrowding in certain areas. Which is exactly the point being made here.

Bringing the standing argument into this is mixing up two different arguments. Its not standing that's caused the reduction in capacity, its the unreserved arrangements that have done that. To increase capacity through standing would necessitate the removal of the seats. I didn't realise we had done that yet.

[i_ateallthepies]

Anyone who followed the progress of the move to unallocated seating KNOWS that it was done to facilitate the bringing together of the various singing groups (for reasons I wholeheartedly endorse) and was done with a broad understanding that it would need and be accompanied by a relaxing of the stewarding control on standing in that location.  The way this was done inextricably links the two together.

[silent majority]

Anyone who followed the progress of the move to unallocated seating KNOWS that it was done to facilitate the bringing together of the various singing groups (for reasons I wholeheartedly endorse) and was done with a broad understanding that it would need and be accompanied by a relaxing of the stewarding control on standing in that location.  The way this was done inextricably links the two together.

I don't doubt that at all and it was something we've been encouraging the club to do for a long time. However to then take the leap and reach a conclusion that the argument that standing increases capacity  is false because we've had to cut capacity fails to appreciate the points that I've made. Safe standing does increase capacity in most cases, but there has to be other changes to accommodate that and we are yet to reach that stage.

[Chris Black come back]

Don't know what the set up is here, but anyone buying tickets for any game for kids should immediately be guided by ticket office staff towards the family area. Suspect though that some folk especially online will be taking their kids into the South Stand on Saturday and God help them!

[normal rules]

It's only a matter of time before the unreserved seating is withdrawn. I would bet a small wager those hell bent on having this established are some of the ones who stand together away from the seats and on the steps creating a dangerous overcrowded area designed for ease of access in and out of seats. They will also be the one who get in the ground half pissed at five to three.
Give people a foot and they take a yard.
Human nature, I know. But sooner or later it will end in tears.

And for what it is worth, I'm not agains unreserved seating. The idea of being able to sit with your mates, family is good in principle.

What it was not established for was so that a group could create an unofficial terrace in parts of the south stand encroaching onto the steps and gangways in clear breach of ground regulations.

[Copps is Magic]

I'll take that wager.

[DRFC]

Same here. Hundred quid to the Royal British Legion (or a charity of your choice) that it's still unreserved next season. Deal?

[Padge_DRFC]

It's only a matter of time before the unreserved seating is withdrawn. I would bet a small wager those hell bent on having this established are some of the ones who stand together away from the seats and on the steps creating a dangerous overcrowded area designed for ease of access in and out of seats. They will also be the one who get in the ground half pissed at five to three.
Give people a foot and they take a yard.
Human nature, I know. But sooner or later it will end in tears.

And for what it is worth, I'm not agains unreserved seating. The idea of being able to sit with your mates, family is good in principle.

What it was not established for was so that a group could create an unofficial terrace in parts of the south stand encroaching onto the steps and gangways in clear breach of ground regulations.

Then you lose another 1000 fans probably if this happens and goes back to last season's library. It won't happen because the next home game we'll be back to a half empty South stand and 2/3 empty ground.

[hoolahoop]

I happen to agree with Dave (Filo) in that if you have built a stadium and given an area a specific capacity then overflow areas should already be built into the layout .

Sorry SM , I just don't buy your argument because if the spectators press to a certain area for whatever reason then they naturally free up another area surely ? As for numpties wilts rover can you please give it a rest otherwise you risk tarring all our support with the same brush.

Hoola, you're missing the point. Its not about freeing up areas and congregating in others. Its about trying to get 3,000 people into exactly 3,000 seats and avoiding the congregating. Congregation is dangerous and would lead to injury and the closure of the stadium. Now, getting 3,000 people into allocated seats is difficult enough but getting 3,00 people but in an unallocated seated area is very difficult, if not impossible. And thats the point. If you want to do it safely then you need to aqllocate all the seats and make sure people take up their seat, if they dont want to then you have to cut the numbers.

I'm not sure how you think that having overcrowded areas is OK, its not. What happens is people migrate to the gangways causing major issues. When crowds surge people get knocked over and death can follow, just like this Stoke City fan.

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Family-Stoke-City-fan-Mabel-Smith-fight-truth/story-19582240-detail/story.html

As you know I'm a big fan of getting standing back in stadiums, but it must be done safely and with due regard to numbers. In most stadiums where clubs are allowing 'singing sections' then the numbers of seats sold per row are reduced, usually by at least one on the end of each row. The reason is that people standing take up more room and to allow for that they cut the numbers. Which is exactly what we have done!

Martin I am not missing the point as I fail to see why these safety factors are not built into the quoted capacities. Are we saying here that Old Trafford for instance actually has seats for some 15% extra over and above their attendances i.e. c. 90,000. Many of their supporters continually stand during games and always have. We have a small stadium why on earth do we have to limit it further - everywhere is already accessible by stewards, police and emergency services ?

Stadia with previous capacities of say 50,000 when converted to all seaters quoting capacities of say 42,000  can only take in say 15% less . Why quote a capacity that will never ever be the capacity feck me what a system !

We all know that there were many reasons for the Hillsborough disaster and it wasn't all about unallocated seating. It was nowhere near as simple as that.

[Copps is Magic]

Don't know what the set up is here, but anyone buying tickets for any game for kids should immediately be guided by ticket office staff towards the family area. Suspect though that some folk especially online will be taking their kids into the South Stand on Saturday and God help them!

Chris, for the Scunny game I walked around the middle two blocks of the stand handing out free Black Bank flags to kids sat with their families. Most, if not all, had smiles on their faces and were enjoying themselves and waved them during the game. There has been kids in there from top to bottom for pretty much every game. What kind of hell hole do you imagine it is?

[DRFC]

BAN THIS SICK FILTH!

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I've also asked fathers and mothers whether they would rather be in the family stand. Not a bit of it, that's where they want to be.

[normal rules]

It's only a matter of time before the unreserved seating is withdrawn. I would bet a small wager those hell bent on having this established are some of the ones who stand together away from the seats and on the steps creating a dangerous overcrowded area designed for ease of access in and out of seats. They will also be the one who get in the ground half pissed at five to three.
Give people a foot and they take a yard.
Human nature, I know. But sooner or later it will end in tears.

And for what it is worth, I'm not agains unreserved seating. The idea of being able to sit with your mates, family is good in principle.

What it was not established for was so that a group could create an unofficial terrace in parts of the south stand encroaching onto the steps and gangways in clear breach of ground regulations.

Then you lose another 1000 fans probably if this happens and goes back to last season's library. It won't happen because the next home game we'll be back to a half empty South stand and 2/3 empty ground.

Show me how the creation of black bank has put 1000 on the attendances.
Have a chat with yourself.
Feel good factor and atmosphere , yes. 1000 more coming through the turnstiles. Don't think so.

[hoolahoop]

Don't know what the set up is here, but anyone buying tickets for any game for kids should immediately be guided by ticket office staff towards the family area. Suspect though that some folk especially online will be taking their kids into the South Stand on Saturday and God help them!

Chris, for the Scunny game I walked around the middle two blocks of the stand handing out free Black Bank flags to kids sat with their families. Most, if not all, had smiles on their faces and were enjoying themselves and waved them during the game. There has been kids in there from top to bottom for pretty much every game. What kind of hell hole do you imagine it is?

I'm 59 and disabled so at the other end of the spectrum. I wonder where I should be palmed out to .....please not the West.
We are trying to build a new generation of Rovers supporters whilst it seems there are conservatives trying their utmost to drag us back ............WHY ??

Normalrules I'm convinced that you are deliberately winding up folk that have worked and continue to work so hard on this project. You need to look into a mirror fella

[DRFC]

It's only a matter of time before the unreserved seating is withdrawn. I would bet a small wager those hell bent on having this established are some of the ones who stand together away from the seats and on the steps creating a dangerous overcrowded area designed for ease of access in and out of seats. They will also be the one who get in the ground half pissed at five to three.
Give people a foot and they take a yard.
Human nature, I know. But sooner or later it will end in tears.

And for what it is worth, I'm not agains unreserved seating. The idea of being able to sit with your mates, family is good in principle.

What it was not established for was so that a group could create an unofficial terrace in parts of the south stand encroaching onto the steps and gangways in clear breach of ground regulations.

Then you lose another 1000 fans probably if this happens and goes back to last season's library. It won't happen because the next home game we'll be back to a half empty South stand and 2/3 empty ground.

Show me how the creation of black bank has put 1000 on the attendances.
Have a chat with yourself.
Feel good factor and atmosphere , yes. 1000 more coming through the turnstiles. Don't think so.

Not yet it hasn't. It will do though, long term results is what the club are looking for (for once).

We on for this bet then?

[normal rules]

BAN THIS SICK FILTH!

News flash.
Doncaster rovers facing fine for allowing young child to stand in elevated area of ground designed for tv cameras only.
Inquest hard how child x aged 12, fell from an elevated to gantry whilst watching a league one fixture, causing injury. The inquiry went on to establish that the particular part of the ground had become an unstewarded area due to demands for unreserved seating from certain elements of the supporters. Reports received indicate that safety regulations in that part of the ground were being flagrantly disregarded.
The enquiry continues.

[IDM]

I happen to agree with Dave (Filo) in that if you have built a stadium and given an area a specific capacity then overflow areas should already be built into the layout .

Sorry SM , I just don't buy your argument because if the spectators press to a certain area for whatever reason then they naturally free up another area surely ? As for numpties wilts rover can you please give it a rest otherwise you risk tarring all our support with the same brush.

Hoola, you're missing the point. Its not about freeing up areas and congregating in others. Its about trying to get 3,000 people into exactly 3,000 seats and avoiding the congregating. Congregation is dangerous and would lead to injury and the closure of the stadium. Now, getting 3,000 people into allocated seats is difficult enough but getting 3,00 people but in an unallocated seated area is very difficult, if not impossible. And thats the point. If you want to do it safely then you need to aqllocate all the seats and make sure people take up their seat, if they dont want to then you have to cut the numbers.

I'm not sure how you think that having overcrowded areas is OK, its not. What happens is people migrate to the gangways causing major issues. When crowds surge people get knocked over and death can follow, just like this Stoke City fan.

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Family-Stoke-City-fan-Mabel-Smith-fight-truth/story-19582240-detail/story.html

As you know I'm a big fan of getting standing back in stadiums, but it must be done safely and with due regard to numbers. In most stadiums where clubs are allowing 'singing sections' then the numbers of seats sold per row are reduced, usually by at least one on the end of each row. The reason is that people standing take up more room and to allow for that they cut the numbers. Which is exactly what we have done!

Martin I am not missing the point as I fail to see why these safety factors are not built into the quoted capacities. Are we saying here that Old Trafford for instance actually has seats for some 15% extra over and above their attendances i.e. c. 90,000. Many of their supporters continually stand during games and always have. We have a small stadium why on earth do we have to limit it further - everywhere is already accessible by stewards, police and emergency services ?

Stadia with previous capacities of say 50,000 when converted to all seaters quoting capacities of say 42,000  can only take in say 15% less . Why quote a capacity that will never ever be the capacity feck me what a system !

We all know that there were many reasons for the Hillsborough disaster and it wasn't all about unallocated seating. It was nowhere near as simple as that.

Is OT unreserved seating? The debate is about the capacity being reduced by unreserved seating, not standing?

[normal rules]

And for what it is worth, I am as vociferous a football fan as the next. Unreserved seating is exactly that. It's not a free for all.
It's seating, but where you want. Not stand where you want.

I would hate it if someone got hurt.