BREXIT

[BillyStubbsTears]

That'll be the hilarious piece of wit that started life on the Vote Leave Facebook page last week and is being passed round by hilariously witty wags all round the Internet, eh BB?

[Bentley Bullet]

Don't know BST, I'm not a wag.

Glynn, doesn't everyone who tries to convince others to agree with them use propaganda?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

No. Some people try to use reasoned, balanced argument. Unbalanced, illogical propaganda is the equivalent of having to dive to win at football. It's what you do when you place winning above the actual issue at stake.

In football terms, to me, winning is not the really important thing. It's the process by which you win. If you can only win by blatant cheating, that victory is pointless.

In politics, winning for the sake of winning is not just pointless. It's positively dangerous. Changing people's opinions through lies and refusal to engage with rational discussion takes you down a very dangerous road. As America might be in the verge offending out.

[Bentley Bullet]

You said that without moving your lips Glynn!

BST,

The problem there is who's using propaganda and who's not, or in football terms, who's cheating and who's not.

I reckon if one side was guilty of it and the other wasn't, it'd be a walkover.

[Glyn_Wigley]

An analogy has to have some correlation with reality in order to simplify that reality to make someone understand it more easily. Your example has no correlations whatsoever, it explains nothing and as such is typical of the 'scaremongering' the Leave side are supposed to be so disapproving of.

[Bentley Bullet]

So let me get this right. are you saying that the remain side haven't used scaremongering as a tactic?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

If you have any examples of the Remain side disseminating idle snd pointless shite like this, feel free to share it.

[BobG]

Apropos this business of the future being unknowable - how come the Leave lot get away, every time, with claiming the Remain lot are wrong, or talking out of some orifice where the sun don't shine, or are taking money and so can't be trusted? Even if that were all true, it plain don't mean that what they are saying is incorrect, inaccurate or plain wrong. Yet no one ever says that the Leavers are 'wrong' with their forecasts.

Example: we will save £10Bn a year they claim. Well whoopy do. About a gnats bite of our annual budget. It sounds a lot. Ooh a billion quid... Luvverly. But £10Bn is sod all. Go on. Check. FYI the total Govt budget this FY is £759.5Bn. So to save 1.3% of the budget we are proposing to turn our backs on security, influence and safety.

Unbelievable Geoff.

BobG

[Bentley Bullet]

Bob, you know when you said "It's just soo sad the number of people who haven't got a damn clue about what the EC is and what the EC is not.  And you know what's worse? These people are actually allowed to vote. It's downright scary. Just imagine. They could be sat on a jury one day too. Ignorance in all its glory"., Do I take it that you were referring to people like me, who are too thick to decide, or people who just had a different opinion to you, like your very intelligent Tory mate you mentioned the other day?

[idler]

Thick or not my wife and I have voted to leave. My son-in-law is a police inspector and also probably voting to leave. At least if BST, Glynn and Bob G vote to stay they will cancel us out.
If you three want to live in Bradford for a few years then maybe your views might change.
This isn't an opinion based solely on immigration either.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler

Surely the immigration issue in Bradford revolves around Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants?

I fail to see what that has to do with the EU. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

So let me get this right. are you saying that the remain side haven't used scaremongering as a tactic?

Obviously the fallacious logic the Leave side have used in their 'analogy' is contagious as it is plain to anyone with eyes that I haven't said that at all, even by implication.

[The Red Baron]

I'll give you a positive take though.

We are the luckiest, wealthiest, safest, best educated set of Europeans that have EVER lived on this continent. For 1700 years, competing powers in Europe, us included, have fought, argued, cheated, lied, schemed and hated. We put individual aggrandisement above the collective good and the results were catastrophic in terms of potential wasted and lives wrecked.

Europe is the most wonderful place on Earth. Full of innovation and energy and diversity and resilience. What the EU has done, for all its faults, is to channel those attributes into net positives across the continent. Go back to nation states trying to get one up on their neighbours, and you'll be back into the frictions and fractures that tore Europe apart every generation from the fall of the Roman Empire to the fall of Berlin.

THAT's the big picture that I see. It's a United, strong, collective Europe that I want my grandkids to grow up in. Not the fragmented and bitter one that my grandparents were born into.

That's what the real issue is in a couple of weeks.

BST

I suggest you try telling Greeks that Europe is the most wonderful place on earth.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Example: we will save £10Bn a year they claim. Well whoopy do. About a gnats bite of our annual budget. It sounds a lot. Ooh a billion quid... Luvverly. But £10Bn is sod all. Go on. Check. FYI the total Govt budget this FY is £759.5Bn. So to save 1.3% of the budget we are proposing to turn our backs on security, influence and safety.

A very large chunk of those 'savings' will be needed to protect the borders that the Leavers say we need to tighten. And its not only at every port and airport - the new land border between Eire and Northern Ireland will cost a bit to keep secure once all the 'hordes' of EU immigrants that the Leavers keep talking about realise that they only have to go from any other EU country to Eire under Freedom Of Movement then walk across the border into the UK...but the costs of keeping them out never seem to get mentioned by the Leavers, apparently all the savings going to be magically spent on the NHS by a Tory government..!

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

I fully agree that the way Greece has been treated is a disgrace. I've said that enough times. That is the result of a flawed Euro and particularly flawed macro-economic obsessions in the German administration.

That is a totally separate issue to the central thrust of the EU.

The treatment of Greece is wrong in my opinion. No question. However, I'll make 3 observations.

1) Even after that, Greece is still in a unrecognisably stronger position than it was 30 years ago before joining the EU. Greece's economy grew SEVENFOLD between joining the EU and the great crash. Even after the wrongheaded austerity, it's as big as it was in 2005.

2) Despite what it has been put through, the Greek people still don't want to leave the EU. Point?

3) Biggest point of all. Last time Greece had a massive socio/economic fracture, 40-odd years ago, it resulted in a coup d'etat byba quasi-fascist military junta. After 30 years in the EU, for all its weaknesses, Greece's democracy has survived the appalling problems of the past decade.


If that is the best counter argument you can come up with, it's really making my point for me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

What about the rest of my earlier post. Put Greece to one side. Do you agree with the rest of the argument? If not, which bits and why not?

[The Red Baron]

Idle nonsense in that article. The worst kind of selective journalism.

It bases its argument on Remain's case being built around lying civil servants and superstars.

What about NATO's heads? What about the heads of the security services? Are they lying civil set ants? We don't know the Telegraph's view because they just ignore them.

What about the IFS? The NIESR? Respected and independent economic forecasters who have given clear warnings of the effects of Leaving, with detailed scenarios. What about the 90% of academic economists who believe that leaving will result in significantly worse performance in the future? The Telegraph's response is that most infantile one: Well the future is unknowable so let's just ignore people who study these things and go with our guy feel eh?

It's like planning for D-Day and saying, "Phew! You can't really predict these things. Experts eh? What do they know? Let's ignore Montgomery and Eisenhower and just do this on a whim of what might make the British people feel better about themselves."

Crap, immature journalism.

Sorry to say this, BST, but your posting sums up the Remain attitude to this campaign. That was what I was trying to get at earlier, and you've illustrated it fqr me nicely.

We have a great example today. Current (although I'm not so sure about Jeremy) and former leaders of the Labour party telling working class voters that they should vote Remain. So basically you have politicians who have failed these people before to vote the way they think is best for them. And we wonder why the Left is fast becoming irrelevant?

I had a chat with a woman who works as a domestic carer the other day. She mentioned the referendum, not me (I'd rather talk sport or music). She was undecided, but she said every one of her clients was voting Leave (or Out, as she put it.) These ard people who are, not to put too fine a point on it, at the bottom of the food chain. I'm not sure they understand what the EU does particularly, but I get the idea that they are f**ked off with politicians in general. I doubt they are any more enamoured of Boris and Gove than they are of Cameron and Corbyn. And you know what? I reckon this scenario could be played out in just about any country in the EU. It's just that we're having the Referendum now.

Whatever the result, the EU either reforms itself and starts working in support of the people of Europe, or it is history. Telling people how much worse it could be won't work - because they don't think things could be worse.

[The Red Baron]

BST

Have the Greeks been asked if they want to leave the EU? If they have, I must have missed it.

[The Red Baron]

TRB

What about the rest of my earlier post. Put Greece to one side. Do you agree with the rest of the argument? If not, which bits and why not?

BST

If you're arguing that an artificial, political construct is superior to free nations working with each other then I would disagree. It never ends well - see under Yugoslavia but also the Ottoman Empire.

I've never been against a European Community. Just a European Union that wants to centralise power and create a super-state.

[idler]

Idler

Surely the immigration issue in Bradford revolves around Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants?

I fail to see what that has to do with the EU. 

BST, Bradford is now a melting pot. My two youngest grandchildren live in an area that is fast becoming a minority for white British or even British of any colour over 30 to 40 years of age.
 There are Slovakians that are fast becoming a problem. Romanians and various other nationalities including Poles, Afghans, Iraqis, khazakstanis etc.
We have recently received some 200 Syrians as we are a multi cultural city. Apparently we get a grant to help these unfortunate people but after 12 months the council shoulder the burden. As a city we cannot cope whether it be housing, school places, jobs or health.
Even a lot of immigrants think that it has gone too far.
Teach, treat, house and employ those that are here before making the situation worse.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler

So how does leaving the EU deal with Afghans, Kazakhs, Iraqis etc?

[idler]

With all of them here Billy there is no room potentially any Albanians, Turks etc.
Some people that have seen jobs disappear to foreigners of any nationality have little time for the EU on that score alone. The EU have helped fund a cycle path between Bradford and Leeds to the tune of several million pounds. This has narrowed the roads leaving traffic chaos in certain places.
A total waste of money in most people's eyes.  That isn't winning the remain camp many votes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Whereas "Free nations working with each other" worked just fine for a millennium and a half eh?

If you ignore the Wars of the Holy Roman Empire, the Viking pillaging, the Hundred Years War, the Peasants' Revolt in Saxony, The Thirty Years War, the Anglo Dutch Wars, The Seven Years War, the Wars of Austrian and Spanish Succession, the Wars of the French Revolution, The Napoleonic Wars, the 1848 Revolutions, the Wars of German Unification, the Franco-Prussian War, the Italo-Ottoman War,the First Balkan War, the Second Balkan War, WWI, the Greek-Turkish War, the Polish-Soviet War, the Spanish Civil War, WWII and the Greek Civil War?

Does that trump your collapse of Yugoslavia?

PS: I'll ignore your implicit equivalence between the EU leaders and Tito or Suleiman the Magnificent. Because, frankly, if you REALLY meant that, then we're outside the boundaries of anything remotely close to sensible. So I assume it was a mistake on your part.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

You don't like the fact that Remain don't tell a positive story? Can you see why it's a bit hard to do that, when your response to a positive angle is to compare the EU to Communist dictators and military conquerors and oppressors of defeated nations? Do you get an inkling of why the debate is not hitting the heights here? And in the light of your bizarre comments, can you see why the Remain side pull a grim smile when they are accused of being a bit over-exuberant with their claims.

[BobG]

Example: we will save £10Bn a year they claim. Well whoopy do. About a gnats bite of our annual budget. It sounds a lot. Ooh a billion quid... Luvverly. But £10Bn is sod all. Go on. Check. FYI the total Govt budget this FY is £759.5Bn. So to save 1.3% of the budget we are proposing to turn our backs on security, influence and safety.

A very large chunk of those 'savings' will be needed to protect the borders that the Leavers say we need to tighten. And its not only at every port and airport - the new land border between Eire and Northern Ireland will cost a bit to keep secure once all the 'hordes' of EU immigrants that the Leavers keep talking about realise that they only have to go from any other EU country to Eire under Freedom Of Movement then walk across the border into the UK...but the costs of keeping them out never seem to get mentioned by the Leavers, apparently all the savings going to be magically spent on the NHS by a Tory government..!

Not forgetting, Glyn, the veritable fortune it's going to cost to wire and patrol the entire Anglo Scottish border which will be come neccesary pdq once we choose to leave and the Scots decide they're having none of it. Leave that border open and guess what will happen......! Funny how the Leave gang never mention the risk to the union that their position poses or the vast influx of illegal migrants it will bring in its wake. It could, very easily and very quickly become our very own Mexican border - even after spending all of that wonderful £10Bn they keep banging on about in a vain attempt to close the border.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob.

No, but that Kitson Salmond is mentioning it. Subtly goading the English folk who dislike Scots to vote leave as a way of provoking a second independence referendum and cutting Scotland off. It wouldn't surprise me if SNP supporters vote Leave to try to tip the balance.

[BobG]

I had dinner tonight with a few Oxbridge types who had been down to publicly discuss the vote. Their consensus was that the result will be 51/49 or 52/48 in favour of staying in. But, and this would be immense fun, England will clearly vote to leave whilst Scotland and Wales will vote to stay in enough numbers to just tip the balance. Just imagine the froth that that would cause.........

Who was it said England is a nation of shopkeepers? Wasn't wrong was he? We know the price of everything. And the value of nothing.

BobG

[Sammy Chung was King]

We already do have control to stop people who we don't want coming in. And the way you say we don't need criminals littering our prisons almost suggests you think the majority of prisoners are foreign.





Not being funny but all you've done is sum up the thread in one post and chuck in a load of cliches and bandwagon jumping. So you've said f**k all, really.

Red, is it because you disagree with me?, or is it because you have taken a dislike to me through my posts?, because i can't remember you once agreeing with anything i post, fair enough on either, the dislike isn't mutual if that's what it is.
I don't think they are cliches, i don't jump on bandwagons, i look at all points of view and form my opinion, as you are learnt at school as a historian. I don't think i know that much about how things are done properly, i am constantly trying to improve with everything i do.
I am not cast iron on either option, it's very hard to be, because there are so many opinions to mull over, i am just edging towards leave, because i feel the country can be better long term out. I'm voting thinking of my nieces futures as well as my own, i want as safe a country as possible for when they are adults!.

I don't think the majority are foreign in our prisons, it's not an easy task working out who is a good person, and who is a danger to the public.
The majority in our prisons are our own citizens.
 What i am saying is overall, don't stop immigration, but make it a points system where we get good skilled tradesman,also factory workers, solicitors, nurses, doctors. We need a wide range of skilled people, what we don't need is more immigrants than we can handle without the whole system having to be enlarged quicker than we can manage.
Both decisions have plusses and minuses, i am not against foreign people, a good person is the same in any language. Some have come here and improved things, the cafe in collonades, they are lovely people, very polite, run a good business and are a credit to our town, Another one near the white bear, again really nice friendly people, some of our people could learn from them with manners and work ethic.
I feel both sides have ulterior motives, that's why it is hard to decide just going on there opinions, and that's all they are, they know more than we do, but nobody can know what will happen in the future.
 What's really surprised me is jeremy corbyn being so against staying in, then at the last minute he wants to stay!.

[idler]

I had dinner tonight with a few Oxbridge types who had been down to publicly discuss the vote. Their consensus was that the result will be 51/49 or 52/48 in favour of staying in. But, and this would be immense fun, England will clearly vote to leave whilst Scotland and Wales will vote to stay in enough numbers to just tip the balance. Just imagine the froth that that would cause.........

Who was it said England is a nation of shopkeepers? Wasn't wrong was he? We know the price of everything. And the value of nothing.

BobG

Just a thought Bob.
Those that you think aren't intelligent enough to deserve a vote are they fit to fight for our country and possibly die for the course?
People far more intelligent than you and I are divided on this issue so I take it you consider anyone opposed to your view aren't intelligent enough to grasp reality?
I've cast my vote so if we stay I carry on, if we leave I'll do everything that I can to make it work. I don't mind even being worse off personally if the country as a whole benefits.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Project Fear eh?

Leave side this morning:

IDS: If we stay in the EU, we could end up in a supranational government zone, forced into the Euro with powers taken from national Govts.

Farage: if we stay in the EU, women could face being gang raped by immigrants.

Johnson: repeating that £350m lie.

What a bunch of disgusting chancers. To think that this cabal could be determining the future of our relations with Europe, and possibly running the f**king country after the referendum. God help us.