BREXIT

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've wobbled a bit on whether it'll be close but I've located my knackers.

54-46 for Remain. And then for f**k's sake let's put this whole issue to bed for the rest of my life and start addressing what really matters about our future.

I expect it may be closer. Problem is I suspect a lot don't really know what's going to happen.  Is there a sense of people being afraid to vote leave for fear of the criticsm some are favouring at the moment, some of which isn't called for.  52-48 is my prediction.

BFYP

This is how legends start. This is how people on once themselves that "we'd have won if only..."

What evidence do you have that people are being stopped from supporting Leave because of criticism?

[The Red Baron]

I'll start another thread so people can do their predictions of the outcome. Mine is somewhere between BST & BFYP.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I've wobbled a bit on whether it'll be close but I've located my knackers.

54-46 for Remain. And then for f**k's sake let's put this whole issue to bed for the rest of my life and start addressing what really matters about our future.

I expect it may be closer. Problem is I suspect a lot don't really know what's going to happen.  Is there a sense of people being afraid to vote leave for fear of the criticsm some are favouring at the moment, some of which isn't called for.  52-48 is my prediction.

BFYP

This is how legends start. This is how people on once themselves that "we'd have won if only..."

What evidence do you have that people are being stopped from supporting Leave because of criticism?

Minimal it's a musing of something which does happen in elections whereby people may vote for the less credible action but not publicly admit it. It's a potential just as the potential existed last time around for a Tory win, which did come true.  IT may not happen but given the points such as being anti immigration makes you a racist - a claim that has been made by some online for instance, it is possibly the case and could sway the polls as they are now. We will know on Friday morning.

[Lipsy]

Must admit that whilst I was pretty down about the way the referendum appeared to be going last week, I think there seems to be a change in the mood of the nation as we near the vote. My beef was that the Remain camp seemed unable to counter Leave's attacks and that Leave seemed to be able to spout any old ballacks and folks were lapping it up. Thankfully, Farage went too far and, as that interview with Gove this morning showed, people are beginning to pick apart some of the nonsense BJ and co. have been trying to force down everyone's necks (and yes, I do appreciate that both sides have been talking shite at times, but my feeling (bias?) is that Leave has churned about the most nonsense of the two sides).

Anyhoo, I still think that it's going to be very close but I remain hopeful.

[Lipsy]

Poor old Gove, he's not having the best of days... He's had a bit of a kicking from John Barnes.

http://snpy.tv/28KNZYd

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well Gove isn't renown for his command of facts is he. He has plenty of previous when it comes to shouting the odds and getting it wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10514113
Followed, two days later by...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10538754

[Colemans Left Hook]

Sion Revelation? Don't worry, we've got the Freemasons on our side.

We're starting to stray into tinfoil hat territory now, are the arguments that desperate? But then again, if you're going to fall for any old BS, make sure it's a good one!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion

[BillyStubbsTears]

Last stab.

If you are still a convinced Leaver, have a read of this and think deeply.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite?CMP=soc_3156

[BobG]

I've been well nigh traumatised by the amount of advertising, usually with unapproved company and individual 'endorsements', that have been dropping through my letter box and staring up at me on the rag I have to read each morning on the train. So today was a real red letter day: an ad, a proper full page ad in that rag suggesting we should Remain (though the front and back covers were completely taken up with an ad saying'leave!' Lol); a decent Remain leaflet through my door when I got home tonight; another chance to laugh at that utter idiot Michael Gove, and, finally, two people I've been discussing things with on and off telling me this evening they are voting to stay. One of them I'm really quite surprised by too. And lastly, did anyone else spot the newspaper ad, partly in French, from maybe 20 French companies all suggesting we should Remain? Rather nice ad I thought.

Slightly differnt aspect, I do hope you've all seen the growing feeling amongst European politicians from right across the spectrum, that if we leave, they have to ensure that the UK 'feels real pain' to deter anyone else from going down the same road.  That's a such a blindingly obvious reaction that only the short sighted and ideologically driven latter day Pyhrrus's can have failed to see it coming. Even the Swedes are saying now that we have to take the pain if we leave - and I see they reckon a deal will take upto 10 years to agree too.

BobG

[Glyn_Wigley]

Sion Revelation? Don't worry, we've got the Freemasons on our side.

We're starting to stray into tinfoil hat territory now, are the arguments that desperate? But then again, if you're going to fall for any old BS, make sure it's a good one!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion

Is this some sort of attempt to convince me that it's not a load of b*llocks?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Last stab.

If you are still a convinced Leaver, have a read of this and think deeply.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite?CMP=soc_3156

PS. Paul Mason wants us out of the EU. And he wants the EU to unfold. But even HE isn't going to vote for a Brexit on the terms of Farage, Gove and Johnson.

[RedJ]

I've been well nigh traumatised by the amount of advertising, usually with unapproved company and individual 'endorsements', that have been dropping through my letter box and staring up at me on the rag I have to read each morning on the train. So today was a real red letter day: an ad, a proper full page ad in that rag suggesting we should Remain (though the front and back covers were completely taken up with an ad saying'leave!' Lol); a decent Remain leaflet through my door when I got home tonight; another chance to laugh at that utter idiot Michael Gove, and, finally, two people I've been discussing things with on and off telling me this evening they are voting to stay. One of them I'm really quite surprised by too. And lastly, did anyone else spot the newspaper ad, partly in French, from maybe 20 French companies all suggesting we should Remain? Rather nice ad I thought.

Slightly differnt aspect, I do hope you've all seen the growing feeling amongst European politicians from right across the spectrum, that if we leave, they have to ensure that the UK 'feels real pain' to deter anyone else from going down the same road.  That's a such a blindingly obvious reaction that only the short sighted and ideologically driven latter day Pyhrrus's can have failed to see it coming. Even the Swedes are saying now that we have to take the pain if we leave - and I see they reckon a deal will take upto 10 years to agree too.

BobG

Nah, we'll be fine. Nige says so.

[Colemans Left Hook]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/queens-brexit-challenge-dinner-guests-give-three-good-reasons-britain-part-europe/


"The Queen’s Brexit challenge to dinner guests: ‘give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe’

[BillyStubbsTears]

Is this "Let's post a random link" night?

[RedJ]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/queens-brexit-challenge-dinner-guests-give-three-good-reasons-britain-part-europe/


"The Queen’s Brexit challenge to dinner guests: ‘give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe’

But surely the challenge is to prove why the status quo should be disturbed...?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob

I saw Gove on the box tonight after the big debate. The BBC had cameras backstage catching arguments between Leavers and Stayers.

Gove was arguing with a Remainer. And he looked bizarre. Every time he finished a sentence, he went all tense and pushed up on his toes which clearly required a tensing of the buttocks. Looked like he was trying to suck a satsuma up his arsehole.

Strange, strange behaviour. And to think, he might be the power behind the throne come Friday.

[Colemans Left Hook]

Conservative Conference 2009 Thursday 8 October 2009 14.43 BST

Full text of David Cameron's speech


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/08/david-cameron-speech-in-full

look near the end 7/8th's of the way down

"EU But if there is one political institution that needs decentralisation, transparency, and accountability, it is the EU.

For the past few decades, something strange has been happening on the left of British politics. People who think of themselves as progressives have fallen in love with an institution that no one elects, no one can remove, and that hasn't signed off its accounts for over a decade.

Indeed even to question these things is, apparently, completely beyond the pale. Well, here is a progressive reform plan for Europe.

Let's work together on the things where the EU can really help, like combating climate change, fighting global poverty and spreading free and fair trade.

But let's return to democratic and accountable politics the powers the EU shouldn't have.

And if we win the election, we will have as the strongest voice for our country's interests, the man who is leading our campaign for a referendum, the man who will be our new British Foreign Secretary: William Hague"

game set and match

funnily enough we had a conversation tonight as to whether Boris & Cameron would swear their allegances to their causes on the bible  so "chameleon" Cameron isn't doing too well

 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Conservative Conference 2009 Thursday 8 October 2009 14.43 BST

Full text of David Cameron's speech


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/08/david-cameron-speech-in-full

look near the end 7/8th's of the way down

"EU But if there is one political institution that needs decentralisation, transparency, and accountability, it is the EU.

For the past few decades, something strange has been happening on the left of British politics. People who think of themselves as progressives have fallen in love with an institution that no one elects, no one can remove, and that hasn't signed off its accounts for over a decade.

Indeed even to question these things is, apparently, completely beyond the pale. Well, here is a progressive reform plan for Europe.

Let's work together on the things where the EU can really help, like combating climate change, fighting global poverty and spreading free and fair trade.

But let's return to democratic and accountable politics the powers the EU shouldn't have.

And if we win the election, we will have as the strongest voice for our country's interests, the man who is leading our campaign for a referendum, the man who will be our new British Foreign Secretary: William Hague"

game set and match

funnily enough we had a conversation tonight as to whether Boris & Cameron would swear their allegances to their causes on the bible  so "chameleon" Cameron isn't doing too well

 

Game set and match? Jesus, you really can't understand a speech when it's given can you? All that speech says is that that the EU needs reform and that he promises a referendum. Nowhere does it say that leaving the EU is the best option, it says reforming it is.

Do you even read this stuff you're claiming is 'game set and match'?

[Glyn_Wigley]

And if a politician's inconsistency is somehow supposed to decide the argument (a completely fallacious viewpoint to have, I'm voting on facts not bluster) then I take your seven-year-old misinterpreted David Cameron Speech and raise you Boris Johnson.

'Look, I’m actually rather pro-European, actually. I certainly want a European community where one can go and scoff croissants, drink delicious coffee, learn foreign languages and generally make love to foreign women.’

January 1997

‘We can’t leave Europe. We’re part of the European Continent. What is the English Channel? It’s a primeval river that got slightly too big … We’re always going to be a part of Europe psychologically.’

August 2015, Der Spiegel

‘We want, in an ideal world, to stay in a reformed European Union but I think the price of getting out is lower than it’s ever been. It’s better for us to stay in, but to stay in a reformed EU. That’s where I am.’

October 2015, BBC interview, Japan

‘The trouble is I’m not an “outer”.’ What he reportedly told eurosceptics trying to persuade him to lead the Leave campaign

January 2016

‘I’ve never been an Outer’. Boris to Eurosceptic Tory MP Bernard Jenkin after he was taunted in the House of Commons.

February 3, 2016


And this is from the Daily Mail!!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3457684/How-Boris-Johnson-s-views-Brexit-past-two-decades-veered-like-shopping-trolley.html

[The Red Baron]

I won't argue with you over Boris's flip-flopping, but I would say that it's perfectly possible to like Europe and feel European while being against the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Maybe. Whether it's believable to go from years of prevarication to Churchillian mode as Johnson has done since February is another thing entirely.

Let's be frank. Johnson is in the game for nothing other than Johnson's career. If he thought that the Tory party wanted it's next leader to be someone with only one bollock, he'd have the carving knife out before you could blink.

Johnson's performance in this whole campaign is not in the slightest to do with whether we will stay or leave the EU. It's about him replacing Cameron.

That either happens on Friday, after Leave win. Or if Remain win, it happens in 2019,when Cameron steps down. Johnson has cynically played Osborne out of the game. Osborne, in this instance, is doing the right thing for the economy and the country. But the Tory party is virulently anti-EU. And Osborne has shot his bolt with them. He will not be PM.

 Johnson is playing to the anti-EU  gallery in his party and its odds on that he WILL be leader.

Great isn't it? THE most important political issue that any of us will have to face in our lifetime, and we're all being played for fools. Because this referendum is not being held to give the people a say. It's being held to let the Eton and Bullingdon Boys figure out who comes out on top.

[Glyn_Wigley]

TRB

Maybe. Whether it's believable to go from years of prevarication to Churchillian mode as Johnson has done since February is another thing entirely.

Let's be frank. Johnson is in the game for nothing other than Johnson's career. If he thought that the Tory party wanted it's next leader to be someone with only one bollock, he'd have the carving knife out before you could blink.

Johnson's performance in this whole campaign is not in the slightest to do with whether we will stay or leave the EU. It's about him replacing Cameron.

That either happens on Friday, after Leave win. Or if Remain win, it happens in 2019,when Cameron steps down. Johnson has cynically played Osborne out of the game. Osborne, in this instance, is doing the right thing for the economy and the country. But the Tory party is virulently anti-EU. And Osborne has shot his bolt with them. He will not be PM.

 Johnson is playing to the anti-EU  gallery in his party and its odds on that he WILL be leader.

Great isn't it? THE most important political issue that any of us will have to face in our lifetime, and we're all being played for fools. Because this referendum is not being held to give the people a say. It's being held to let the Eton and Bullingdon Boys figure out who comes out on top.

But everybody - including Johnson - seems to be forgetting the one silver bullet in Cameron's armory. If Dave really wants to shaft Johnson in return, all he has to do if Leave wins is to call a General Election - whilst he is still PM and leader of the Tory party. Boris and the Brexiters would have to back Cameron as loyal Conservatives in such an election, unless they are hell-bent on destroying the party - and would they want to be seen to be so blatantly treacherous and opportunistic?

[Glyn_Wigley]

I won't argue with you over Boris's flip-flopping, but I would say that it's perfectly possible to like Europe and feel European while being against the EU.

And it's still perfectly possible to want to remain in the EU but want reforms. I know, because that's my position.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I won't argue with you over Boris's flip-flopping, but I would say that it's perfectly possible to like Europe and feel European while being against the EU.

And it's still perfectly possible to want to remain in the EU but want reforms. I know, because that's my position.

What reforms do you think you'll get?  We've tried (and failed) to do that.  It just won't happen.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I won't argue with you over Boris's flip-flopping, but I would say that it's perfectly possible to like Europe and feel European while being against the EU.

And it's still perfectly possible to want to remain in the EU but want reforms. I know, because that's my position.

What reforms do you think you'll get?  We've tried (and failed) to do that.  It just won't happen.

My big gripe is with how CAP operates. It's been reformed before, it can be reformed again.

[Muttley]

I would imagine going to the EU with a victory for Remain but with a sizeable Leave minority could give the UK a powerful bargaining chip for reform - the EU would unlikely want the UK to call a second referendum so may give further concessions.

[The Red Baron]

I would imagine going to the EU with a victory for Remain but with a sizeable Leave minority could give the UK a powerful bargaining chip for reform - the EU would unlikely want the UK to call a second referendum so may give further concessions.

That's exactly how I see it and why I'll be happy so long as the Leave figure is above 45%.

[Colemans Left Hook]

I'm still astonished that no-one seems to be drawing any conclusions from the fact that the only senior politicians supporting Leave are Johnson and a gang from the most rapidly right-wing of the political spectrum. That's it. No-one else.

This is how far out of the mainstream they are. Listen to John Major talking about them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-major-launches-stunning-attack-8117492


He calls them squalid and deceitful. He says that the idea that they would put money into the NHS is a deceit. "Gove wanted to privatise it. Johnson wanted to charge people for using it and IDS wants a social insurance system. The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster with a python."

sorry BST for taking so long to reply about John Major (of more peas spitting image fame ) use of the word deceit

I put sky news on this morning and was abhorred to see him  John Major -- I was going to refer to him some time in the future  but enough is enough

below are two "alleged" examples of his own "deceipt"
you saw my kettle calling the pan black thread on "branston pickle"

1. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/event/article-2981375/Edwina-Currie-affair-John-Major-ve-never-regretted-spilling-beans-duty.html

"'I’ve never regretted spilling the beans on John Major and me. It was my duty’: Inside the head of... Edwina Currie"
"

note she spilled te BEANS not the PEAS   perhaps she liked his "meat and two veg"  is this an example of deceipt ??

2.  You did not know that Margaret Thatcher was grooming John Major for leadership I was told this by someone a long time before Majors "moment of wisdom (teeth)"
basically when she needed him he had to have a wisdom teeth removed and couldn't rather inconveniently speak

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SZjpCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT57&lpg=PT57&dq=john+major+wisdom+teeth&source=bl&ots=b4b_-ffpv7&sig=nNCd9Lq1srorW_ctU3ivKEMie7U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie5ff3rrvNAhXqDpoKHYgrD9w4ChDoAQgoMAE#v=onepage&q=john%20major%20wisdom%20teeth&f=false

the 2 pages in this john major book I've linked are a good read -- I leave it to the reader to decide whether point 2 is "deceipt"

here we go

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2001/jan/16/healthandwellbeing.health3

"And, in 1990, there was the intriguing case of John Major's wisdom teeth, which were operated on during the weekend before the Conservative party's leadership contest between Margaret Thatcher and Michael Heseltine. Although Mr Major's supporters insisted his appointment with the surgeon had been booked long ago, it conveniently rendered the middle-aged chancellor speechless in the week when his ill-fated leader needed all the vocal support she could get. "

[RedJ]

What on earth are you on about?

[casperjebba]

CLH has anybody ever told you that you use far too many "quotation marks?"