BREXIT

[BillyStubbsTears]

Coleman. I'm in awe.

I've never met anyone who argues in such detail and totally misses the point every time.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Mr Juncker disagrees he says there will be no more negotiation and British people need to learn this. Glyn, take note!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye BFYP.

And according to the BBC website, Juncker was saying that THAT is the case if we vote to leave.

"It is understood Mr Juncker was not referring to the prospect of future reforms in the event of the UK voting to remain in the EU."

But once again, Leave spin that their own, mendacious way.

""If we stay in, there is no prospect of any further change," Mr Johnson said. "This is it, folks. We have been told from the horse's mouth that any hope of further change is absolute illusion."
He added: "It is time for us to show our courage and our commitment to democracy by standing up to these unelected tin-pot figures."
And UKIP's Nigel Farage said it was the "last chance saloon" for the UK."

If you vote Leave, you've bought their lies from start to finish.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Presumably he was stating that in case anyone thought that we could twist their arms if we went back to the negotiating table after a Leave vote and hope to get something out of them in the belief that they would give us anything we wanted not to actually leave.

[The Red Baron]

For anyone thinking of staying up to watch the results come in on Thursday night / Friday morning, this will be useful.

https://electionsetc.com/2016/06/22/how-the-bbc-will-be-benchmarking-the-results-on-eu-referendum-night/

[BillyStubbsTears]

Presumably he was stating that in case anyone thought that we could twist their arms if we went back to the negotiating table after a Leave vote and hope to get something out of them in the belief that they would give us anything we wanted not to actually leave.

And Johnson twists that 180degrees. And the gullible or those who want to hear that message, hear that message.

De-f**king-mocracy eh? And that t**t might be PM by Monday.

[The Red Baron]

PM by Monday? Come off it, BST!

If Cameron loses and goes, there will be a contest. It won't be a walk in for Boris.

[Filo]

Presumably he was stating that in case anyone thought that we could twist their arms if we went back to the negotiating table after a Leave vote and hope to get something out of them in the belief that they would give us anything we wanted not to actually leave.

And Johnson twists that 180degrees. And the gullible or those who want to hear that message, hear that message.

De-f**king-mocracy eh? And that t**t might be PM by Monday.

£1k says he's not 😉

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo. No, you're right. There won't be a replacement that quick even if Cameron steps down on Friday.

I'll have you a decent bet that Johnson will be PM by September if Leave wins though.

Be careful what you vote for...

[Glyn_Wigley]

I see a situation si

Filo. No, you're right. There won't be a replacement that quick even if Cameron steps down on Friday.

I'll have you a decent bet that Johnson will be PM by September if Leave wins though.

Be careful what you vote for...

In a Leave win scenario, I can see a situation similar to when Macmillan resigned bit did everything he could to make sure that the obvious candidate Rab Butler didn't succeed him. I bet Cameron would do anything it takes to knife Boris in the back in a tit for tat. To do that he'd have to stay where he is - and the best thing he could do is hold a Commons Motion of No Confidence in the the Government - not him personally - that all the opposition parties would do well to abstain from voting on. Boris and his chums want rid of Cameron, but if they voted the motion down they'd immediately trigger a General Election and the Tories would have to go into it with Cameron as leader....and the party would never forgive those in the party who voted against the party in a No Confidence motion...

[BobG]

Can Cameron, or any Tory MP, actually put down a no confidence motion? What a startling concept. Brilliant! Be fun if Labour say put down the motion and then they, and everyone else, then abstained in the vote.

If Cameron goes and the Tory party decides it doesn't want the Blonde Liar, (which it won't, sadly) who would then be a reasonable candidate???

BobG

[The Red Baron]

Can Cameron, or any Tory MP, actually put down a no confidence motion? What a startling concept. Brilliant! Be fun if Labour say put down the motion and then they, and everyone else, then abstained in the vote.

If Cameron goes and the Tory party decides it doesn't want the Blonde Liar, (which it won't, sadly) who would then be a reasonable candidate???

BobG

Teresa May. She has largely kept quiet during the referendum. She has said she's for Remain but has then made speeches that are broadly Eurosceptic.

She might not have much of a sense of humour but she's no mug politically

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gove eh?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/cameron-gove-has-lost-it-in-comparing-anti-brexit-economists-to-nazi-experts

What an utter Kitson.  THIS is where our politics is going. If independent experts set out data and arguments that you don't like, a Cabinet Minister, a f**king CABINET MINISTER accuses them of being lapdogs to the Establishment like those who licked Hitler's arse.

 f**k me. I had hoped and expected that by the early 21st century, we'd be putting arrogant, obnoxious toe-rags like Gove behind us and making decisions based on rationality. Instead, millions of people are going to vote tomorrow having been convinced by Kitsons like this one that everyone is cheating and lying to them. Gove's ideal outcome is to keep people ignorant, teach them to ignore facts and encourage them to vote from base instinct. He is a disgrace to the country and his profession.

[rabjohns]

Out for me,  there won't be any manuel or unskilled jobs for our youngsters who aren't clever enough for further education.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jesus...they've done it haven't they? They've convinced people like you that the reason for that problem is the EU and immigrants. And that the likes of IDS and Gove will provide our youngsters with something better.

[Lipsy]

This advert was privately paid for and has the benefit of being accurate. It might put some goddamn perspective on the migrant issue, though - for some - I doubt it.

[Copps is Magic]

I'm going to toddle off to vote later today. I wanted out on the same ticket Tony Benn wanted out. No one can look at institutions like the European commission and tell me it's democratic. I'm very afraid we're in an era of bureaucratic-corporatism so far removed from ordinary Europeans live's as to be only overthrown by a revolution. I think the EU is becoming more insular to the rest of the world and certain things we do are damaging developing countries.

BUT, I'm ultimately going to vote remain because I just don't think we can risk regressing from the free movement of people. I've lived with Latvian, Bulgarian, German and Polish girls in the past (and men of course but that doesn't quite move me in the same way). Beautiful, intelligent, multi-lingual, critical young women. The most bewildering question that always perplexed me was why they came to this little poxy island? The answer in all cases was that they had an unnerving determination to just get on, to better themselves, and to contribute. We're just going to have to work together in the future to sort out the problems.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps.

A perfectly fair approach, and I understand your take from the Left, even if I don't agree with it. Have you read that Paul Mason link I posted a day or two back?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite?CMP=soc_3156

[Lipsy]

20 years of this shite, served up by our even-handed press:

[Colemans Left Hook]

This advert was privately paid for and has the benefit of being accurate. It might put some goddamn perspective on the migrant issue, though - for some - I doubt it.

let's just talk pie charts (if they are still called that) and numbers
yes that chart looks insignificant   0.5%-

but when you step outside your front door count 200 neighbours down the street that 1 person  in 200 brings home reality

at least "french bred snails" coming into the UK bring their HOME with them and don't put demands on infrastructure  -- they actually make their "own roads" if you know anything about snails

[BillyStubbsTears]

Coleman

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/why-do-people-want-less-eu-immigration.html

[Lipsy]

Coleman,

I've a shedload of work on today, so I am going to have to be super-lazy in my response to your reply. Sorry about that, but hopefully this is in the same spirit as your recent posts:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGMVwcxF2Nk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGMVwcxF2Nk</a>

[BillyStubbsTears]

And whilst we're at it, if you want a philosophical reason for rejecting the Leave approach...

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/why-defeating-brexit-is-so-important.html

[Copps is Magic]

Copps.

A perfectly fair approach, and I understand your take from the Left, even if I don't agree with it. Have you read that Paul Mason link I posted a day or two back?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite?CMP=soc_3156

Yeah. To put it differently, most people (due to the way the campaign has been run) will be voting Politically with a capital P as opposed to a small p. Me included in fact, because the leave people are so far removed from my values that I don't want them gaining any ground.

Its a perverse outcome of this whole thing but it is really a product of a simple YES or NO vote on something that is as complicated as the EU. All I'm hearing from people who I would broadly consider to be regular people (i.e. not ideologically brainwashed either way) is that it is too complicated and they don't fully understand it/can't make an informed decision. And that really is EXACTLY the correct answer to this referendum.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Which is precisely the reason that referendums on REALLY important issues are such a bad idea. Most people are simple unable or unprepared to put in the mental heavy lifting required to come to rational conclusions. The perfect example being that you so often hear people complaining that they no-one is giving them believable information on the economic effects of Brexit.

LOTS of independent economists have presented data and the overwhelming majority, 90+%, have said that the effect will be bad.

That is as clear-cut a message as you will ever get, but it's not got through to the population. Therefore, people are making a momentous decision without being properly informed.

We elect professional, intelligent, hard working representatives to debate and decide on these issues. That is how these issues ought to be decided. Not on gut instinct of people who barely take a passing interest in the detailed arguments.

[Lipsy]

Right then. Sorry for once again aiming for playful but coming across as sarcastic (honestly, I am wrestling with something called Infusionsoft for a client and it's melting my noodle somewhat). It's lunchtime now, so I'll try to do better.

Coleman,

I totally understand that many people are seeing the impact of immigration in and on their communities and that it is being more keenly felt in some parts of the country than others. From my point of view, I see this as something that has been happening ever since this country became an island thousands of years ago - I really am that namby-pamby about this sort of thing. Sorry.

However, it's not as though recent provision to lessen the impact of immigration wasn't made to ensure the schools, hospitals, and other services weren't affected. Can you guess what happened to it? I'll give you a big clue because it wasn't officially announced: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/aug/06/fund-impact-immigration-scrapped

Therefore, I'll happily support the idea/fact/thinking that we have our government(s) to blame for the rising tensions and"problems" caused by immigration.

[Copps is Magic]

Interesting note on who can vote that I learned from one of my friends today. EU nationals living in Britain are not permitted to vote, however, nationals from Commonwealth countries (and Ireland) who live in Britain are permitted to vote. The person who flagged this is up is of Polish descent, who moved to Canada and who now lives in Britain. He has both a Canadian and Polish passport but is only allowed to vote on proviso of his Canadian passport and not his Polish!

Flags up contradictions of the whole thing. I wonder how such people will vote more generally.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Lipsy

Plus, the massive school building project that had gone on throughout the noughties was scrapped in July 2010 by...yep...Michael Gove. The same Gove who now plays to the gallery, stoking up the understandable anger of people who can't get their kids into the school they want. And telling them it's because of immigrants.

Classic far-Right tactics. Shrink State provision. And when people hurt as a result, tell them that it's the nasty, thieving, gold bricking immigrants who are to blame. It's happened throughout history. I'd assumed that we'd be too smart to fall for that line in 2016, but perhaps not.

[Lipsy]

The endgame for all of this has been to secure a Tory government for as long as is possible, if not for generations. Who it hurts and what it does to certain communities has never been much of a consideration beyond ensuring that it doesn't negatively impact the Tory vote.

As I made mention before, historically-speaking we've always managed to hold firm against extremism (we'll, that's my memory of history from my college days) - we'll know in about 18 hours(?) if we've managed to withstand it again.

[Colemans Left Hook]

do we really want this

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20151202IPR05759/All-MEPs-to-have-access-to-all-confidential-TTIP-documents

and this

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+RULES-EP+20150428+ANN-07+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN&navigationBar=YES

as you've no doubt discussed (not debated) out of interest did anyone in Europe vote for TTIP - who exactly came up with the idea WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE -- a very honest question

here's what wiki says (until BST amends it!!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

Margaret Thatcher got caught out when she didn't read the small print   - at least she had the opportunity to read it 

It seems the TTIP handcuffs are already around our wrists trouble is the handcuffs have  a TWENTY YEAR TIME LOCK on them  (BST will know all about this)
---------------
TTIP reminds me of 3 money market traders (to simplify think of two traders) all washed up on a desert island and they all make a living*

*for the avoidance of doubt they don't trade coconuts  more likely grains of sands in the "futures market"
rumour has it one of them whilst on the island sold his first aid box via PFI (just like the NHS hospitals were)


remember mr corbyn will vote against ttip so the world is safe

never mind

have a nice day