BREXIT

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm still astonished that no-one seems to be drawing any conclusions from the fact that the only senior politicians supporting Leave are Johnson and a gang from the most rapidly right-wing of the political spectrum. That's it. No-one else.

This is how far out of the mainstream they are. Listen to John Major talking about them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-major-launches-stunning-attack-8117492


He calls them squalid and deceitful. He says that the idea that they would put money into the NHS is a deceit. "Gove wanted to privatise it. Johnson wanted to charge people for using it and IDS wants a social insurance system. The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster with a python."

[Dutch Uncle]

I had dinner tonight with a few Oxbridge types who had been down to publicly discuss the vote. Their consensus was that the result will be 51/49 or 52/48 in favour of staying in. But, and this would be immense fun, England will clearly vote to leave whilst Scotland and Wales will vote to stay in enough numbers to just tip the balance. Just imagine the froth that that would cause.........

Who was it said England is a nation of shopkeepers? Wasn't wrong was he? We know the price of everything. And the value of nothing.

BobG

Add Northern Ireland to Wales and Scotland there Bob. The last polls (Belfast Telegraph 5 June) show 54% remain, 35% leave and the rest undecided or will not vote. Interestingly 70% Unionists are likely to vote Brexit, but 80% Nationalists wish to remain in the EU alongside RoI. So it might be Scotland, Wales and Sinn Fein keeping us in the EU 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/bill-white/eu-referendum-70-of-unionists-voting-for-brexit-34761354.html

P.S. Not sure why you believe Oxbridge types so much - Bill Clinton and Blair all the way through to the current crop do not have my trust.     

[The Red Baron]

I had dinner tonight with a few Oxbridge types who had been down to publicly discuss the vote. Their consensus was that the result will be 51/49 or 52/48 in favour of staying in. But, and this would be immense fun, England will clearly vote to leave whilst Scotland and Wales will vote to stay in enough numbers to just tip the balance. Just imagine the froth that that would cause.........

Who was it said England is a nation of shopkeepers? Wasn't wrong was he? We know the price of everything. And the value of nothing.

BobG

Add Northern Ireland to Wales and Scotland there Bob. The last polls (Belfast Telegraph 5 June) show 54% remain, 35% leave and the rest undecided or will not vote. Interestingly 70% Unionists are likely to vote Brexit, but 80% Nationalists wish to remain in the EU alongside RoI. So it might be Scotland, Wales and Sinn Fein keeping us in the EU 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/bill-white/eu-referendum-70-of-unionists-voting-for-brexit-34761354.html

P.S. Not sure why you believe Oxbridge types so much - Bill Clinton and Blair all the way through to the current crop do not have my trust.     

I think Wales is rather more Eurosceptic than people might think. UKIP did quite well in the recent Assembly elections.

However I think the overall figures Bob has come up with probably won't be far off.

[The Red Baron]

TRB

Project Fear eh?

Leave side this morning:

IDS: If we stay in the EU, we could end up in a supranational government zone, forced into the Euro with powers taken from national Govts.

Farage: if we stay in the EU, women could face being gang raped by immigrants.

Johnson: repeating that £350m lie.

What a bunch of disgusting chancers. To think that this cabal could be determining the future of our relations with Europe, and possibly running the f**king country after the referendum. God help us.

The hyperbole on both sides is depressing, and Farage's statement clearly falls into that camp. On IDS's comment though, I do fear this could eventually happen. Not soon, but it's pretty clear that the Single Currency and the Eurozone will be made to work, whatever the consequences might be.

[The Red Baron]

I'm still astonished that no-one seems to be drawing any conclusions from the fact that the only senior politicians supporting Leave are Johnson and a gang from the most rapidly right-wing of the political spectrum. That's it. No-one else.

This is how far out of the mainstream they are. Listen to John Major talking about them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-major-launches-stunning-attack-8117492


He calls them squalid and deceitful. He says that the idea that they would put money into the NHS is a deceit. "Gove wanted to privatise it. Johnson wanted to charge people for using it and IDS wants a social insurance system. The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster with a python."

John Major should spend more time at The Oval. Otherwise people might start reminding him of his role in the ERM fiasco.

[coventryrover]

What scares me is how right wing those who are pioneering Brexit are. Gove, IDS, Farage et all scare the living daylights out of me.

I am also frustrated by the lack of highlighting how positive the EU has been.  Workers rights (working time directive, minimum wage, paternity and maternity leave) , security cooperation, combatting climate change, clean beaches, improvements and regeneration of poorer areas.  There are probably numerous more that I have failed to mention.

Then you have prominent parties (scientists, economists, scholars etc) who have all stated how important staying in the EU is.  I'd rather believe those than Mr Gove and Mr Farage.

The leave campaign have not come up with anything concrete, from a positive point of view.  They have concentrated on migration and are campaigning on fear...sadly it seems to be working

[BobG]

Idler - I mean what I said. Yes. £10Bn is a lot of money. But in the scale of what this county this country budgets each year, it's trivial. So publicising the '"10 billion pounds" by the Leave bunch is an exercise in both greed ('Oooh goody. All that lovely dosh') and disinformation by claiming it will make a significant difference. it won't. It will be swallowed up, and more, by having to guard the border with Scotland. So yes, I suggest again that the Leavers are trading on the fact that we know the cost of everything - and the value of nothing. What have they offered to replace the valuable things we will lose? Nothing. Pious hopes at best. So again, they, and by implication, we, know the value of nothing.
They have offered nothing to replace what would be lost - except scare, scurrilous mendacity and character assasination. The fact that the Leavers have failed to mention the huge risk to both the Union and their beloved immigration controls posed by their position shows just how intent on misleading this country they are.  Like I said, they know the cost of everything, and the value of nothing.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

So, the Remain side, providing detailed economic forecasting is scaremongering. But the Leave side, hypothesising some distant future scenario is being fair and sensible?

And, I beg to differ on Farage's comments. They are not "hyperbole". They are revolting dog-whistle racism and are a bloody disgrace.

[Sammy Chung was King]

I'm still astonished that no-one seems to be drawing any conclusions from the fact that the only senior politicians supporting Leave are Johnson and a gang from the most rapidly right-wing of the political spectrum. That's it. No-one else.

This is how far out of the mainstream they are. Listen to John Major talking about them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-major-launches-stunning-attack-8117492


He calls them squalid and deceitful. He says that the idea that they would put money into the NHS is a deceit. "Gove wanted to privatise it. Johnson wanted to charge people for using it and IDS wants a social insurance system. The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster with a python."

John Major should spend more time at The Oval. Otherwise people might start reminding him of his role in the ERM fiasco.

John major, Kinnock and numerous others are protecting pensions they get. Both sides are nothing short of a disgrace, the actual information to help with the decision of voting is miniscule.
 Both sides are using scare tactics. Those in the leave group are trying to get up the ladder to the top job, i don't believe that Boris johnson is voting this way because he believes in it, and i am currently siding with leave!.
 Personal ambitions, prejudices and plain old self interest, protecting money that they will lose if we leave. It's human nature to protect money that will help your family to have a great life.

 None of these politicians care how it affects our lives, if the country goes seriously downhill, they have the money to buy property almost anywhere they want.
 It's me and you the normal guy on the street that has to deal with the mess their decisions could cause. It shouldn't be about party politics, personal interest or whatever, it should be for the good of the majority, not a few to line there pockets, but unfortunately we live in a corrupt society, it is a long long time since a politician took up the job to improve others lives, it's a myth, they don't exist any more for me!.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sammy

That post is a symptom of one of the most worrying features in the modern debate.

What you post about politicians is simply untrue. There ARE some who go into politics for personal aggrandisement - Boris Johnson is the most obvious example. There are plenty who are not brilliant at what they do. But the overwhelming majority are hard-working, diligent, and in it because (whether you agree with them or not) they have a belief that they can help to make things better for the people of the country.

I vehemently disagree with pretty much everything that IDS and Gove believe in. But they DO believe in their main political ideals and they work damn hard to try to get them implemented because they fervently belief that they would make the country a better place.

Your post is an exemplar of the modern cynicism that assumes that everyone in politics is out for themselves and no-one else. It never was true and it isn't today. Go and speak to a politician. Go and speak to the local ones like Lucas, Winterton or Miliband. Book a session at their surgery. Spend 5 minutes in their company and get an idea of the drive and zeal and nous that they have.

What really scares me is that the sort of wrong-headed ideas that you have are very, very common. It is, frankly, ignorance parading as intelligent scepticism. And when people are as disconnected as that from politics and politicians, it leaves us open to be seduced by the smart, savvy snake-oil salesmen who really ARE only in it for themselves. Like the Kitson who is angling to replace Cameron.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Sammy

That post is a symptom of one of the most worrying features in the modern debate.

What you post about politicians is simply untrue. There ARE some who go into politics for personal aggrandisement - Boris Johnson is the most obvious example. There are plenty who are not brilliant at what they do. But the overwhelming majority are hard-working, diligent, and in it because (whether you agree with them or not) they have a belief that they can help to make things better for the people of the country.

I vehemently disagree with pretty much everything that IDS and Gove believe in. But they DO believe in their main political ideals and they work damn hard to try to get them implemented because they fervently belief that they would make the country a better place.

Your post is an exemplar of the modern cynicism that assumes that everyone in politics is out for themselves and no-one else. It never was true and it isn't today. Go and speak to a politician. Go and speak to the local ones like Lucas, Winterton or Miliband. Book a session at their surgery. Spend 5 minutes in their company and get an idea of the drive and zeal and nous that they have.

What really scares me is that the sort of wrong-headed ideas that you have are very, very common. It is, frankly, ignorance parading as intelligent scepticism. And when people are as disconnected as that from politics and politicians, it leaves us open to be seduced by the smart, savvy snake-oil salesmen who really ARE only in it for themselves. Like the Kitson who is angling to replace Cameron.

Miliband has done some good things for people around my area, i personally think he needed to be himself rather than trying to fit what everybody wanted him to be.He could have led the country just as well as cameron.
 Where i think he went wrong, he attacked anybody doing well, yes you need to look after the poor, but you shouldn't go after any certain class set. To be prime minister you need to be for all of the people.
 The big companies are the one's who are not paying a fair share, but even them you can't go too far as you make them not want to trade in your country. The government make loopholes available, a people or companies use them, then years down the line they are attacked for doing it!
.
There is one potential future leader that i see, who could do the job, who also has the capabilities of a prime minister, and that's Ed's brother, David. I look at all the parties and i don't see people who could do the job, they all miss vital things needed to lead a country.
Boris, his buffoonery, get's tiresome after a bit. I was a little over the top saying no politicians care, because there are some that care, and compared to big companies they don't get paid that well.
 BBC executives are paid more than Cameron, like him or not, he has a highly pressurised job, you can't please everybody in that job.

It's a job that ages people very quickly. My worst fear would be to see George Osbourne or Boris in charge, because i think they would be worse than cameron, Osbourne especially, i see him as a man with no heart for anybody!.
Our country, is still a great place to live, but if you are going to have immigration, you must have the time, to build the infrastructure to cope with it. You have to add to the size of things, not cut them like the tories have been doing. That's why i think leave is just about the best option, it could slow things down for a while, until confidence is restored, but overall, at the minute, leave makes more sense to me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sammy

That's a more sensible post mate. You should stay up will 4am more often!

On school building, it's not so much the time as the political will. The very first thing that Michael Gove did when we took over as education secretary in 2010 was to slash the school building programme.
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/jul/05/school-building-programme-budget-cuts

Gove presided over the third biggest cut in state education spending as a proportion of GDP in the past 200 years. (The other two were in WWI, WWII and under Thatcher in the early 80s).

That was ideological madness. for two reasons

 Even if you accepted the Austerity argument at the time, the very worst thing you can cut is capital investment. The money that you spend on capital projects both produces infrastructure for the future, and keeps people in work, thus supporting the economy at a time of massive problems in the rest of the economy. That was one of the reasons why our economy flat-lined from 2010 to 2013 (after which, the school building programme was quietly re-started as part of Osborne's surreptitious pre-election spending boom).

Secondly, it has put massive pressure on school places. Pressure which is no being blamed on immigrants.

And this is the Michael Gove who tells you that the imaginary billions he will save by leaving the EU [1] will be re-invested in public services. My f**king arse.

[1] Once again, the independent and widely-respected IFS slapped Gove down yesterday on this issue in the strongest of tones. http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346 How can anyone take that man, or those arguments from the Leave side with any seriousness?

[MachoMadness]

Watching the ITV debate now. Farage seems to respond to questions with chest-beating patriotism that says nothing and "I never said this thing that I said" handwaving. People seem to fall for it. Ho hum.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah well. He would wouldn't he. He's the biggest liar in politics.

Remember the  2010 UKIP manifesto? The one with plans to give a £250,000 per year tax cut to anyone earning £1m per year and plans to require taxi drivers to wear uniforms and train companies to paint their trains in "traditional colours"?

When Farage was asked about it in 2014, he said it was barking mad. Then when asked why those policies had been accepted, he said it was nothing to do with him as he'd never read it. He was right on the barking mad. But he ought to have read it because he wrote the foreword to the manifesto and launched the thing at a press conference.

That's how Farage acts. When he's cornered, he brazen it out and just lies. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing on the immigrant/sex attack theme. He blows the dog whistle, then throws his hands up and says, "I never said that!" The nastiest and most dangerous bas**rd in British politics.

[Sammy Chung was King]

I don't honestly know why they picked Farage, out of the out politicians. Boris has been the main man in that camp. Farage will always have racism levelled at him, it was a strange decision for me to pick him.
Why couldn't they genuinly go head to head, rather than the watered down effort we got?. I seem to remember reading the prime minister refused to, i don't know if i am remembering wrong.
Both sides have gone down the all or nothing route, where the truth lies between them. Leaving won't solve all the problems we have, as staying in won't. I see this as a very tight vote i wouldn't like to call it.

A question i don't know the answer to, when are people who have come to our country allowed to vote in our elections, on this subject and all others?.
What i don't like is one minute it was the unemployed who were the scurge of society, now it's the immigrants, who is next?. They seem to pick on minority issues rather than dealing with the real problems.
Our country would have moved forward quicker, if manufacturing our own things had been encouraged. The system needed a boost to get it going.
From articles i have read the debt we owe keeps climbing, yet the tories have tightened the belts of the country. It's not all to do with being in the eu, nothing as as ''black and white'' as that, many things all add upto why the country, isn't running quite how it should.

[bobjimwilly]

An excellent post Sammy. That is excactly what UKIP and far right tories want to do: blame immigrants and get us to vote leave on the issues of immigration, pocket the money that would have been spent on the eu and then push through policies that the EU wouldn't have allowed.

The way I see it; if we leave the EU they will continue to make trade deals and laws that ultimately affect this country, whether we like them or not. A vote to leave means you don't care if the UK is in the room having a say on those deals or laws. Personally, I'd rather the UK be in the room with the ability to veto, which Cameron managed to secure on a number of fronts. It is that simple.

[Mike_F]

Listening to that wazzock Farage on Jeremy Vine's radio show yesterday and subsequently some of the listeners' comments following the interview it's clear that there's at least a proportion of the "out" voting populace who will merrily scapegoat the EU with every prejudice they have against Johnny Foreigner and his wicked ways.

One listener's reason for voting to leave was that she wanted her grandchildren to be brought up with English values and be allowed to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Damn those pesky Beaurocrats and their plans to ban festivals celebrated across the continent!

[bobjimwilly]

One listener's reason for voting to leave was that she wanted her grandchildren to be brought up with English values and be allowed to celebrate Christmas and Easter.

lol WTF?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Kind of the point I was trying to make to TRB earlier in the week about the power of the bigots in the tabloid press at forcing the immigration issue.

I'm sure that old bint has never had a Paki shit through her letterbox for having English values or celebrating Christmas. But "Eeeehhh, we've all read them stories in the papers..."

[Mike_F]

Aye and Pakistan, Europe, Africa, IT'S ALL THE BLOODY SAME.

[RedJ]

They're all that way on.

[ferribyrover]

So the campaign goes on, senior politicians for leave and remain will continue to blag, exaggerate and lie for two more weeks.
Meanwhile the country is basically ok, being run by someone???! So I'm thinking basically we have too many politicians in the UK (and probably Europe). Whatever happened to the idea of reducing the number of MPs which was mooted at the time of the expenses scandal?

[ferribyrover]

The referendum result will be greatly influenced by which politicians people dislike least, or most, if you know what I mean.

[Sammy Chung was King]

I think it is getting to the point, where a lot of the public, don't believe in any of the parties. The time is coming where the best politicians, need to be picked from each party, to form a stronger government, than the mish mash of abilities in each party at the minute.
I think the ideas are old, the thinking not forward enough, the same old mp's being moved from one post to another, not really achieving much.

At the minute parties are constricted from getting the best man or woman for each job. For example the tories are in, but won't pick the labour man who should be chancellor, as he is the best equipped for the job, because he isn't in they're party.
 Or the education secretary is weaker than the man or woman, the liberals, would appoint if in power. It restricts what the country could achieve if it had the best people in each position.

[The Red Baron]

Who do you have in mind, Sammy? I can't think of any Labour MP who would be an outstanding chancellor. And I'm no fan of the present incumbent.

Ditto the Education Sec. Actually I CAN think of lots on both sides of the house who'd be better than her!

I think there's a lot to be said for your first paragraph. IMO the old parties are no longer fit for purpose. I think this Referendum campaign, whatever the outcome, might see the start of a realignment.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB
For all his faults, at least McDonnellunderstands basic textbook economics. Unlike the current incumbent in No11, who has repeatedly demonstrated his ignorance in the topic, and his willingness to follow any bit of voodoo economics that suits his political angle.

[Filo]

I'd like to thank George Osbourne for giving the leave campaign a boost last night, ripped a new arshole by Andrew Neil last night and exposed as the lier he is, even producing a part for the airbus and stating that airbus would leave the UK even though they have already stated they would stay

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just when you thought the tactics couldn't sink any lower, I've just received a shocking flyer in the post from the Leave side. 

Front page gives every impression that it's an independent publication trying to even-handedly discuss the issues. Then on the inside, it repeats all the worst lies and half truths that Leave have been peddling for months, from the £350m per week lie to the we can have a deal like Switzerland without freedom of movement lie. The only indication that it is an official Vote Leave publication is in small print on the back page so small that it's virtually unreadable.

That's the sort of country that Vote Leave want you to live in. One where you can be safely assumed to be so pig ignorant that you can be fed lie after lie after lie and have your opinions bent and twisted like this. I wonder what their real drive is? They KNOW thst there's not a scrap of truth in these arguments. So why are they peddling them? What's the real issue at stake for them?

[Filo]

That's the sort of country that Vote Leave want you to live in. One where you can be safely assumed to be so pig ignorant that you can be fed lie after lie after lie and have your opinions bent and twisted like this. I wonder what their real drive is? They KNOW thst there's not a scrap of truth in these arguments. So why are they peddling them? What's the real issue at stake for them?

We allready live in that sort of Country with the current Tory Government, George Osbourne proved that last night

[Glyn_Wigley]

That's the sort of country that Vote Leave want you to live in. One where you can be safely assumed to be so pig ignorant that you can be fed lie after lie after lie and have your opinions bent and twisted like this. I wonder what their real drive is? They KNOW thst there's not a scrap of truth in these arguments. So why are they peddling them? What's the real issue at stake for them?

We allready live in that sort of Country with the current Tory Government, George Osbourne proved that last night

What do you make of Sarah Wollaston's decision because of Vote Leave's Big Lie then Filo?