BREXIT

[Sammy Chung was King]

Sammy

That post is a symptom of one of the most worrying features in the modern debate.

What you post about politicians is simply untrue. There ARE some who go into politics for personal aggrandisement - Boris Johnson is the most obvious example. There are plenty who are not brilliant at what they do. But the overwhelming majority are hard-working, diligent, and in it because (whether you agree with them or not) they have a belief that they can help to make things better for the people of the country.

I vehemently disagree with pretty much everything that IDS and Gove believe in. But they DO believe in their main political ideals and they work damn hard to try to get them implemented because they fervently belief that they would make the country a better place.

Your post is an exemplar of the modern cynicism that assumes that everyone in politics is out for themselves and no-one else. It never was true and it isn't today. Go and speak to a politician. Go and speak to the local ones like Lucas, Winterton or Miliband. Book a session at their surgery. Spend 5 minutes in their company and get an idea of the drive and zeal and nous that they have.

What really scares me is that the sort of wrong-headed ideas that you have are very, very common. It is, frankly, ignorance parading as intelligent scepticism. And when people are as disconnected as that from politics and politicians, it leaves us open to be seduced by the smart, savvy snake-oil salesmen who really ARE only in it for themselves. Like the Kitson who is angling to replace Cameron.

And some MPs end up giving more than anyone should ever have to.

Disgraceful that she was killed, it sounded like she helped a lot of people, if all politicians were similar the country would be even better than it already is.
 A big loss to politics, but most of all to her kids and husband and family. A crazed idiot doing something so evil, no politics are worth that sort of thing. Democracy is being able to have an opinion, not killing out of hatred, there is far too much hatred in the world at the minute.

[Mr1Croft]

This has been overwhelmingly a long and drawn out campaign, but before I will put my own case forward I will say firstly that without a shadow of a doubt this whole debate (if you care to call it that) has been one big pathetic farce. It's been a debate on personnel rather policy, the media has continued to ignore the facts and instead of circulating useful information so we can make an informed decision they have continued to just display propaganda and scaremongering from both sides: "Brexit will lead to Scottish Referendum" "Hitler would have supported the Remain Campaign" "Brexit will end in World War 3" "Don't give up control". Boris Johnson had the cheek to write an article entitled "Don't believe in Project Fear; Staying in the EU is the real risk".

At each and every election we always look towards the turnout, we analyse who voted in terms of class, age etc., and we always wonder what needs to happen to get more people involved and exercising their democratic right, and by far the biggest referendum most of us will take part in and they behave like this? What sort of advert is this setting for Politics where the scaremongering and peddling of hate and how our very existence is under siege has reached a level where its vaguely possible for us to believe that a man has been pushed to the brink of murder. I'll say it again, it has been a farce.

The one thing I can't contemplate is what is the justifiable reason for us even holding this referendum? Now I may only be 24 and my interest in politics may only stretch to an undergrad level but my understanding as far as I can remember is that the EU has not ever been something that the majority of the British people have ever considered being their number one priority or talking point for a sustained level of time before this referendum was called. In fact I can't even remember a public debate on EU membership before this referendum other than the odd picture shared on Facebook from the like of UKIP and Britain First.

Just 2 years ago the final 7 reports of the Balance of Competences Review undertaken by our civil service was published. It is by and large perhaps the biggest study our Government has ever undertaken which examined almost everything in the EU from the single market and immigration to fishing quotas and trade and its 32 separate reports give you enough reading for about 8 months. The consensus across across every major sector of our economy and society concluded that our membership to the EU gives us greater scope in our policy making throughout the globe and did not have an issue with our membership. Some of the individual measures are questionable and there was some interesting criticisms in terms of implementation but there was no evidence submitted from any person or body which recommended we should leave the EU. Again WHY????

The sad state of affairs is that we are being asked to play someone else's game. Europe has always been the single factor that has either a) ended the leadership of most Tory Party Leaders (including Thatcher it would prove) or b) been the one thing the Tory membership could never be united on. In fact it is accepted in some circles that Cameron won the Tory Leadership in the first-place because he acknowledged in his speech that they lost the election because the Tories were too busy fighting over Europe they were focused on making the party better and not the country. He has tried (and failed) to dodge having to tackle the issue of the EU and has left it in the hands of the British Public and ultimately it will cost him his job as leader of the Conservatives and First Lord to the Treasury (rightfully so, I would argue).

Which again, brings me back to my original point about this referendum campaign being based on personnel rather than actual policy. Of the people I've spoken to when out and about is the same story, there are plenty of sound bites and propaganda from the press but people don't have enough information to make an informed decision and are therefore forced to either a) research it themselves or b) rely on second hand and often distorted and dishonest information.

One example of this 'debate' is the idea that the EU is a body of unelected bureaucrats and that we devolve power and our sovereignty to the EU and that we need to have the power to remove those who govern us. b*llocks! Firstly we do elect the EU directly via the European Parliament and indirectly via the European Council that are either our head of state or a secretary of state. Admittedly there is the European Commission who do propose legislation and this is still reason enough for us to 'take back control' - take back control to who exactly? The House of Lords which seats 840 unelected Peers that propose, scrutinise and vote on our legislation alongside the Commons? In fact our British sovereignty is so stupid that we live in a political system where before something becomes law it requires the assent of an unelected Monarch privileged only by birth and who is banned from even entering the House of Commons.

Another myth being peddled that someone has used as a reason for voting out is because the European Convention on Human Rights can overrule the British Courts regarding deporting immigrants who have committed a crime. Firstly the decision on whether they should be deported is taken by either British Judges or the Home Secretary, criminals can appeal to deportation under article 8 but less than 10% of these appeals are won and these are usually because these criminals have children/spouse in the UK or deportation would result in torture and/or capital punishment. Why people assume our prisons are safe enough for British murderers and rapists but not Albanian ones is beyond me but hey!? Secondly this referendum is on our membership to the EU and not the ECHR, should we vote leave then automatically we will remain to operate under the ECHR until such a time where we legislate otherwise (which will require a full and in-depth review of our Human Rights Act added on top of the review of all current legislation from the EU which is not strictly statute - another waste on tax-payers money in the immediate aftermath).

Another worrying trend is those that think we can vote out and reap the benefits of not beings members with closed borders and no EU membership fees but still enjoy the benefits of free trade without regulation and maintain our trade links with the rest of the world. I think BST has already covered that with Norway and Switzerland perfectly so there is little point me regurgitating that, either way being in the single market and not in the EU will almost undoubtedly come at the cost of accepting free movement of people.

I also think that too many people are exaggerating our influence in terms of trade within the world economy and that going at it alone no major player in the world will be stupid to ignore us in any proposed trade agreements. It is the accepted view that should we then our current trade agreements with the rest of the world will probably come to an end as they were won on the basis that the UK had access to the sing market - we have signed trade agreements by using our access to the single market as a bargaining tool - not being part of that takes away a lot of what we have to offer. USA, China and India amongst others have already said that they will not open negotiations with the UK for trade until they know what the UK's trade deal will be with the EU and whether we will retain access to the single market. EDIT: See Martin Dougan's video below posted by Lipsy for more information on this.


All of this will take time and people. If anyone thinks we have the man power in both Parliament and the Civil Service to undertake all this in under 10 years then you are kidding yourself. Again it just adds more bureaucracy taking up more taxpayers money and straining time that could be spent on shaping policy and legislating.

My final point as I'm aware this is slowly becoming a post too long winded, is that which is probably more personal to me due to family and my own heritage is that of Northern Ireland and our peace process with the Republic. For those of you who haven't visited that area of the UK there is literally no visible border between Northern Ireland and the counties of Donegal, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth. This and with both member states being part of the EU it has become a vital part of our peace process and trying to implement passport and border control, particular in the Ulster counties will not only come at great expense to the tax payer but will undoubtedly result in violence in some scale. Of all the years, the people of Eire are currently celebrating their 100th year anniversary since proclaiming themselves free of British Rule and with the Irish patriotism in the air and it would not surprise me if a small group of "IRA sympathisers" in that area use the implementation of borders as a reason to up-rise against the 'establishment'.

Of course no-one knows exactly how it will pan out, and there are cretins and Kitsons on both sides, personally I have never really questioned our membership with the EU until this debate and therefore I have to conclude our current situation with the EU is not bad enough to warrant us risking everything. But for anyone going into a voting booth on Thursday; please make sure you make your vote in confidence that the information you have used to make an informed decision is not propaganda or scaremongering facts.

[Lipsy]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y</a>

[Lipsy]

That previous video I shared was pretty damn good/interesting, but this is brilliantly funny in places. If nothing else, it's great for lightening the mood:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8</a>

[Glyn_Wigley]

I've just been listening to Radio 5's coverage this afternoon and the amount of ignorance about Trade and Tariffs and how they are applied that was spouted by Leaver after Leaver is truly depressing.

[bobjimwilly]

The video below makes perfect sense to me. Anyone voting leave disagree with her, or care to explain why I shouldn't trust an Oxford University professor on this issue?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFp3-qE_T8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFp3-qE_T8</a>

[Lipsy]

Damn those experts. Coming over here, making sense...

[coventryrover]

Vote leave have come up with absolutely nothing concrete..  how can people vote for such uncertainty?  Is hatred for immigrants worth gambling our kids future?

[Padge_DRFC]

It's not hatred for immigrants at all. My next door neighbour who I've got on with is Polish. I am voting to leave because where does it all end? Every year more than the entire population of the Doncaster borough and more, because 330k is net migration. When does it finally get to the point where we literally can't have any more?

You'd think the EU was the entire world the way people are going on about it. There's a whole world out there not the 15%.

I can see why the labour voters are confused when the leader of labour party has always been anti eu, but changed sides with his job on the line.

[RedJ]

It's not hatred for immigrants at all. My next door neighbour who I've got on with is Polish. I am voting to leave because where does it all end? Every year more than the entire population of the Doncaster borough and more, because 330k is net migration. When does it finally get to the point where we literally can't have any more?

So it is mainly about immigration then.

[idler]

My neighbours are Pakistani and great but there is more to this than immigration.
I've been out with a mate tonight and his step-daughter married a German and lives in Germany.
 Her husband Eric says that they daren't have a referendum in Germany because a massive majority would vote out.
There are already rumblings that if we leave the Nordic nations and even the Netherlands might want to follow suit.
I am happy with trading agreements but don't want a federal Europe in any shape or form.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I don't get what is so dreadful about a federal Europe. The USA is federal and each state still has their own culture and identity - and the USA is hardly a failure...

[Padge_DRFC]

I don't get what is so dreadful about a federal Europe. The USA is federal and each state still has their own culture and identity - and the USA is hardly a failure...

Wow. Just wow. United States of Europe.

[RedJ]

Your point being what, exactly?

[BobG]

Me too Glyn. In a global world the nation state is on the way to becoming obsolescent. Its function is on the road to disappearing as anything other than an interest group for relatively small sub sets of the human race. The primacy of the human race over the artificial national stereotype is becoming clearer by the day almost. You might not like it, I certainly don't like it, but it's a fact even so. (My dislike, btw, is because I value cultural differences and detest world wide Americanisation). Just think of all the moaning that goes on about the inability of nations to control international corporations, capital and corporate tax avoidance. What's that if not an admission that the nation state is approaching its sell by date and that supra national leadership is coming?

BobG

[The Red Baron]

It's not hatred for immigrants at all. My next door neighbour who I've got on with is Polish. I am voting to leave because where does it all end? Every year more than the entire population of the Doncaster borough and more, because 330k is net migration. When does it finally get to the point where we literally can't have any more?

So it is mainly about immigration then.

No, it's about control. We can't control immigration qualitatively or quantitatively because of free movement.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I don't get what is so dreadful about a federal Europe. The USA is federal and each state still has their own culture and identity - and the USA is hardly a failure...

A lot of Americans wouldn't agree. Some would prefer to be independent countries, indeed one or two states may go that way.

[The Red Baron]

I don't get what is so dreadful about a federal Europe. The USA is federal and each state still has their own culture and identity - and the USA is hardly a failure...

You are Jacques Delors and I claim my €5. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't get what is so dreadful about a federal Europe. The USA is federal and each state still has their own culture and identity - and the USA is hardly a failure...

A lot of Americans wouldn't agree. Some would prefer to be independent countries, indeed one or two states may go that way.

You've spent too long with Southern gobshites BYFP. Unfortunately, so have I. They like to shoot their mouths off, but it's not happened through Civil War, Jim Crow, Depression, New Deal and Great Society. It won't happen now.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Some immigrants themselves have the same worries as we do. It's very lazy to say anybody who doesn't vote the way you want them to is racist, old or just not a nice person, as the government has done.
I don't see it as a vote against foreign people, i see it as a vote for governing our own land, with no interference. We have the whole world to trade with, europe will still trade with us.

And do you know what i think will happen, if we do leave?, it will start an exodus of many more countries. The EU has developed into something that wasn't it's original purpose.
Things won't be all rosy, whether we stay or leave, leaving does leave uncertainty, but it could go wrong, but it could also go very well for us.
We managed for centuries without them, is our country so helpless, that it can't survive without them?. I don't think so, i think it could be an exciting new start for us!.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Jesus Christ, yet another one who seems to think that someone has said that we won't trade with Europe if we leave. Yes, of course we will, but imports and exports will COST MORE if we leave.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I don't get what is so dreadful about a federal Europe. The USA is federal and each state still has their own culture and identity - and the USA is hardly a failure...

A lot of Americans wouldn't agree. Some would prefer to be independent countries, indeed one or two states may go that way.

You've spent too long with Southern gobshites BYFP. Unfortunately, so have I. They like to shoot their mouths off, but it's not happened through Civil War, Jim Crow, Depression, New Deal and Great Society. It won't happen now.

Course the southern element is more vocal however it does still exist and to pretend all is rosy would be wrong.

Anyhow back on topic, polling shows it tight but the remain camp has picked up their use of high profile people (Beckham the latest).  I still think remain will win but it will be close.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've wobbled a bit on whether it'll be close but I've located my knackers.

54-46 for Remain. And then for f**k's sake let's put this whole issue to bed for the rest of my life and start addressing what really matters about our future.

[bobjimwilly]

The leave camp now is basically saying the absolutely huge financial, long-term cost of leaving the EU is worth it just to be able to potentially stop a few hundred thousand immigrants coming to the UK (even though the net result is immigrants contribute far more than they take out)?

It's just f**king barmy.

[bobjimwilly]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y</a>

Leave Campaign: "he maybe an expert in the field that has been studying the EU for the whole of his career, but what the f*ck does he know, really?"

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gove on R4 this morning basically said that there would be no change to immigration until at least 2020.

When pressed on the fact that 200,000 immigrants came to the UK from OUTSIDE the EU last year, and asked a) why he had been a member of a Govt that had accepted this, b) which of the nurses, doctors, accountants, engineers etc if this lot he would stop and c) what that had to do with the EU anyway, his response was to praise Nick Robinson for being an excellent interviewer.

Similarly, when asked to name a single world leader who supported Brexit, his response was, "Ah, well, em....a-be, a-be, a-be. Of course the European leaders want us to stay because we pay the bills." I can't fit the life of me think why he didn't just say "Trump and Putin."

It's f**king pitiful isn't it?

[Colemans Left Hook]

well a "former" Walthamstow* dog track glass collector
a.k.a. "Mr Beckham" has finally made his mind up whether the glass is "half full" or "half empty" and using his knowledge of "dogs" has decided to let the country"go to the dogs" AND PUT US ON A TIGHTER LEAD by staying in

* guess what the dog track literally went to the dogs for redevelopment

now on a very serious note

google    prof minford you tube

or listen to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg4VJPrNFeY

apologies if you've seen this before

-----------

there are other reasons that are never mentioned for leaving .. as it would go over peoples heads or under "david beckhams " feet

none of you have probably heard of the words

"the sion revelation"

inside the shadowy world of Europe's secret Masters

& the old chestnut TTIP

[Glyn_Wigley]

Sion Revelation? Don't worry, we've got the Freemasons on our side.

We're starting to stray into tinfoil hat territory now, are the arguments that desperate? But then again, if you're going to fall for any old BS, make sure it's a good one!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I've wobbled a bit on whether it'll be close but I've located my knackers.

54-46 for Remain. And then for f**k's sake let's put this whole issue to bed for the rest of my life and start addressing what really matters about our future.

I expect it may be closer. Problem is I suspect a lot don't really know what's going to happen.  Is there a sense of people being afraid to vote leave for fear of the criticsm some are favouring at the moment, some of which isn't called for.  52-48 is my prediction.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Coleman

We've dealt with Minford already. He was the economist who persuaded Thatcher that monetarism was the solution in 1981. The consequence was that we turned a normal recession into a catastrophic one and put nearly 4 million people on the dole. Even Thatcher wasn't so ideologically fixed as to keep on agreeing with him. Monetarism was quietly ditched in 1982, but the damage had already been done.

Is that REALLY the best you can do? If you start off by being certain that you are right, and then scrat around for someone who tells you what you want to hear, this is where you go.