Russians stealing England flags..

[Copps is Magic]

Where've you heard this?

[DN8ROVER]

Where've you heard this?

On SS News now

[Filo]

It's all over twitter p pics and vids

[Copps is Magic]

Just caught some of it. Appears to be the same story - England and Wales fans drinking in a pub not looking for trouble and these jumped up black t-shirt thugs have come looking it. Also noticed some restraint among the British supporters telling each other not to throw tables and chairs.

[Filo]

The Russians backed off this time

[Jonathan]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/14/euro-2016-violence-trouble-in-lille-as-england-and-wales-fans-jo/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1465927101

[drfchound]

They're very naughty boys.

[Filo]

Orel Butchers again, Locomotiv Moscow fans

[PDX_Rover]

Glasbeys Butchers - Wilby Carr fans

[drfchound]

Flares set off by Russian fans inside the stadium today.
Will the authorities kick them out?

[RedJ]

Well it wasn't violence so presumably not.

Have to wonder how they got the flare in though with the supposed heightened security.

[Mr1Croft]

Worth remembering this next time someone sings the praises of "Ultras." Basically Ultra is just another word for hooligans.

Based on this context you'd be right. But violence has never been part of the Ultra movement, the Ultras came about as colour/wearing fanatics so they didn't get branded as hooligans by the authorities as the hooligans had started to adopt a more low-key "casual" dress sense.

Obviously the roles have reversed and hooligans (as in those that want to fight and not pose for a group photo on Twitter) in European countries have realised being part of the Ultras movement means they go under the Police's radar.

In countries like Russia and Italy the Ultras have been hijacked and Ultras/Hooliganism mean the same thing, but that isn't the case across the entire continent.

An Ultra is someone who classes themself as a "Ultra-fan", nothing more.

[mushRTID]

Just seen Stan collymores video looks like loads of England have ganged up and gone looking for Russians! Loads of em.

[steve@dcfd]

More trouble again this evening, if UEFA want us out of the competition then tomorrow they have a referee who will come down hard on England so we won't win.

[Filo]

Just seen Stan collymores video looks like loads of England have ganged up and gone looking for Russians! Loads of em.

England and Wales teaming up apparently

[bpoolrover]

If we lose tomorrow we will still go thru if we win monday

[wilts rover]

Worth remembering this next time someone sings the praises of "Ultras." Basically Ultra is just another word for hooligans.

Based on this context you'd be right. But violence has never been part of the Ultra movement, the Ultras came about as colour/wearing fanatics so they didn't get branded as hooligans by the authorities as the hooligans had started to adopt a more low-key "casual" dress sense.

Obviously the roles have reversed and hooligans (as in those that want to fight and not pose for a group photo on Twitter) in European countries have realised being part of the Ultras movement means they go under the Police's radar.

In countries like Russia and Italy the Ultras have been hijacked and Ultras/Hooliganism mean the same thing, but that isn't the case across the entire continent.

An Ultra is someone who classes themself as a "Ultra-fan", nothing more.

A bit of light reading for you then Mr Frost
http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/
http://beyondthefieldofplay.com/2013/11/11/3-substitutions-and-5-injuries-later/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249734017_Just_a_Few_RoguesFootball_Ultras_Clubs_and_Politics_in_Contemporary_Italy

[Filo]

Worth remembering this next time someone sings the praises of "Ultras." Basically Ultra is just another word for hooligans.

Based on this context you'd be right. But violence has never been part of the Ultra movement, the Ultras came about as colour/wearing fanatics so they didn't get branded as hooligans by the authorities as the hooligans had started to adopt a more low-key "casual" dress sense.

Obviously the roles have reversed and hooligans (as in those that want to fight and not pose for a group photo on Twitter) in European countries have realised being part of the Ultras movement means they go under the Police's radar.

In countries like Russia and Italy the Ultras have been hijacked and Ultras/Hooliganism mean the same thing, but that isn't the case across the entire continent.

An Ultra is someone who classes themself as a "Ultra-fan", nothing more.

A bit of light reading for you then Mr Frost
http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/
http://beyondthefieldofplay.com/2013/11/11/3-substitutions-and-5-injuries-later/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249734017_Just_a_Few_RoguesFootball_Ultras_Clubs_and_Politics_in_Contemporary_Italy

I think you've quoted the wrong person

[The Red Baron]

In this country, you get groups of fans who call themselves Ultras. Examples are the Stanley Ultras at Accrington and the lads at Middlesbrough. However they are not Ultras- they are passionate fans.

Ultras are highly politicised or violent. Usually both.

[Mr1Croft]

Worth remembering this next time someone sings the praises of "Ultras." Basically Ultra is just another word for hooligans.

Based on this context you'd be right. But violence has never been part of the Ultra movement, the Ultras came about as colour/wearing fanatics so they didn't get branded as hooligans by the authorities as the hooligans had started to adopt a more low-key "casual" dress sense.

Obviously the roles have reversed and hooligans (as in those that want to fight and not pose for a group photo on Twitter) in European countries have realised being part of the Ultras movement means they go under the Police's radar.

In countries like Russia and Italy the Ultras have been hijacked and Ultras/Hooliganism mean the same thing, but that isn't the case across the entire continent.

An Ultra is someone who classes themself as a "Ultra-fan", nothing more.

A bit of light reading for you then Mr Frost
http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/
http://beyondthefieldofplay.com/2013/11/11/3-substitutions-and-5-injuries-later/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249734017_Just_a_Few_RoguesFootball_Ultras_Clubs_and_Politics_in_Contemporary_Italy

It's Croft.

But regardless of that the point I made still stands. All of the links above regard Ultras as football hooligans in both Italy and Russia which was my point above. That doesn't mean it is the same across Europe.

Admittedly in Russia the term Ultra means something completely different and probably has since its origin, whereas in Italy and mainstream Europe an Ultras group was merely organised supporters for the purpose of chanting, Tifo, atmosphere etc.,

The rise of right wing fan groups have used Ultras (or founded them) to make it a more political stance which is the shortest route to making it a violent and thuggish club, see Celtic's Green Brigade which became exactly that.

[wilts rover]

Worth remembering this next time someone sings the praises of "Ultras." Basically Ultra is just another word for hooligans.

Based on this context you'd be right. But violence has never been part of the Ultra movement, the Ultras came about as colour/wearing fanatics so they didn't get branded as hooligans by the authorities as the hooligans had started to adopt a more low-key "casual" dress sense.

Obviously the roles have reversed and hooligans (as in those that want to fight and not pose for a group photo on Twitter) in European countries have realised being part of the Ultras movement means they go under the Police's radar.

In countries like Russia and Italy the Ultras have been hijacked and Ultras/Hooliganism mean the same thing, but that isn't the case across the entire continent.

An Ultra is someone who classes themself as a "Ultra-fan", nothing more.

A bit of light reading for you then Mr Frost
http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/
http://beyondthefieldofplay.com/2013/11/11/3-substitutions-and-5-injuries-later/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249734017_Just_a_Few_RoguesFootball_Ultras_Clubs_and_Politics_in_Contemporary_Italy

I think you've quoted the wrong person

Oh dear, apologies Mr Frost who looks nothing like Mr Croft. However I hope they (and anyone else) might find my links to articles giving some factual information about the links between Ultras and violence, especially in Italy where they first came to prominence in the 1960's and 70's, in response to Mr Croft's somewhat erroneous piece.

[wilts rover]

Worth remembering this next time someone sings the praises of "Ultras." Basically Ultra is just another word for hooligans.

Based on this context you'd be right. But violence has never been part of the Ultra movement, the Ultras came about as colour/wearing fanatics so they didn't get branded as hooligans by the authorities as the hooligans had started to adopt a more low-key "casual" dress sense.

Obviously the roles have reversed and hooligans (as in those that want to fight and not pose for a group photo on Twitter) in European countries have realised being part of the Ultras movement means they go under the Police's radar.

In countries like Russia and Italy the Ultras have been hijacked and Ultras/Hooliganism mean the same thing, but that isn't the case across the entire continent.

An Ultra is someone who classes themself as a "Ultra-fan", nothing more.

A bit of light reading for you then Mr Frost
http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/
http://beyondthefieldofplay.com/2013/11/11/3-substitutions-and-5-injuries-later/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249734017_Just_a_Few_RoguesFootball_Ultras_Clubs_and_Politics_in_Contemporary_Italy

It's Croft.

But regardless of that the point I made still stands. All of the links above regard Ultras as football hooligans in both Italy and Russia which was my point above. That doesn't mean it is the same across Europe.

Admittedly in Russia the term Ultra means something completely different and probably has since its origin, whereas in Italy and mainstream Europe an Ultras group was merely organised supporters for the purpose of chanting, Tifo, atmosphere etc.,

The rise of right wing fan groups have used Ultras (or founded them) to make it a more political stance which is the shortest route to making it a violent and thuggish club, see Celtic's Green Brigade which became exactly that.

Yes apologies again to Mr Frost.

And sorry Mr Croft but your history and knowledge of what the Ultras are is wrong. A further piece for you https://libcom.org/library/history-ultra-movement-italy

With the advent of the Ultras, even the excesses of the public changed face completely. Unruly behaviour like invading the pitch (or 'referee-baiting) decreased, while from around 1974 onwards clashes between rival groups tended to become more frequent. This was the case in two matches that year: Turin-Sampdoria and Rome-Lazio. Right from the start spectators began throwing all sorts of objects onto the field, and violent battles between opposing factions of supporters ensued, obliging the police to intervene firing tear gas onto the terraces. The clashes continued onto the streets, almost in an urban warfare scenario: buses destroyed, cars overturned, etc.

[Mr1Croft]

In this country, you get groups of fans who call themselves Ultras. Examples are the Stanley Ultras at Accrington and the lads at Middlesbrough. However they are not Ultras- they are passionate fans.

Ultras are highly politicised or violent. Usually both.

That's only because of how mainstream media portray them.

But look at VAK410, the Unity2001, ultras gelsenkirchen, Uktras Ghent, Politehnica Timisoara.

I could go on, but that is a few examples of Ultra groups across the continent that are regarded as the largest Ultra groups which are known for their electric and eccentric atmosphere - admittedly usually aided by pyrotechnics.

The point I'm making is the Russain "Ultras" behaving like cocks is not reason enough to brand all Ultras as hooligans.

EDIT: Wilts, as per my previous posts, and at the risk of repeating myself: An Ultra in Russia and Italy is different to what it means throughout Europe. Countries such as Germany, Holland, Sweden, Belgium, Spain, Portugal etc., have ultras known for for flares, Tifo and support in the stadium and not throwing chairs outside of it. Of course there are exceptions with Italy and Russia. In Turkey the media stopped using the word hooligan and replaced it with the term Ultra and more recently Poland and France are seeing Ultras being known more for their violence outside of the stadium than support inside. But these people are only Ultra in name only, for all intense and purposes they are hooligans.

[wilts rover]

Sorry Mr Croft but again you are ignoring historical fact. Ultras groups were formed in the 60's and 70's in Italy, and then spread through Europe in the 80's and 90's, as the most passionate - and most violent group of fans.

If you (and others) peaceful but vocal groups want to refer to yourselves as Ultras then thats up to you - but it's you who are misusing the term - not the media.