I'm struggling...

[Glyn_Wigley]

That's not what google says:

free market - an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

or from business directory:

Where buyers and sellers can make the deals they wish to make without any interference, except by the forces of demand and supply
an economic system where the government does not interfere in business activity in any way

www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-market-economy.html#ixzz4DTMRwJ9N
www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-market.html#ixzz4DTMBCXQQ

or Billy who equates it with free movement of people in post 72. He might need to clarify post 68 if he is using your definition.

The 'restrictions and government interference' I know they were talking about is the EU legislation. Your inference that I have been conned is making a big inference isn't it?

OK, so we go with your definition.

There is NO free market anywhere in the world. Every government on Earth interferes in the forces of demand and supply. Being inside or outside the EU changes nothing in that respect. All that will happen is that EU regulations will be replaced by UK ones, in the same way UK regulations were replaced by EU ones in the past. Is there any EU legislation in particular that you object to that you think the UK won't repalce with similar legislation?

Customs Duties are by their very nature, anti-free market, so no BST, we didn't have free markets before the war as Protectionism was much more prevalent then.

[wilts rover]

In my opinion we dont have a historical comparison to where we are now - or where we might be soon. The world has changed so much since 1973, the end of the Soviet Bloc, the rise of China and India and multinationals, how our economy will cope with them, I have no idea.

It was much simpler when we still had the Corn Laws - although I believe Glyn thinks they are still in place!

[BobG]

The Poor Laws were pretty impressive too Wilts About time they were brought back don't you think?

BobG

[Dagenham Rover]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

[Colemans Left Hook]

The Poor Laws were pretty impressive too Wilts About time they were brought back don't you think?

BobG

if we bring back the windows tax perhaps we can get windows 10 off our computers it'll still be curtains for andrea leadsom

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.

[Glyn_Wigley]

In my opinion we dont have a historical comparison to where we are now - or where we might be soon. The world has changed so much since 1973, the end of the Soviet Bloc, the rise of China and India and multinationals, how our economy will cope with them, I have no idea.

It was much simpler when we still had the Corn Laws - although I believe Glyn thinks they are still in place!

What's that wilts? If you don't know what EU legistlation you object to, you only had to say so.

Oh, and just for your enlightenment, Protectionism is about different Duties levied on importsto protect the home businesses. I presume your wanting 'free market' would mean that you'd want to abolish Anti-Dumping Duty and let China flood the UK with cheap (subsidised) imports, undercutting and then destroying the UK's manufacturing base?

[Dagenham Rover]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.

That's why numerous countries outside the eu are clamouring to get trade deal negotiations started as quickly as possible.
Do you really think that say we left the eu on a set date that all trade with the eu will cease on that date because it wont

[drfc1951]

Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?

[Muttley]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.

Apart from those countries which already have a trade deal with the EU - we would fall out of those deals and have to renegotiate which can take years eg EU negotiations with India started in 2007 and have still not concluded.

Also, there is a shortage of trade negotiators around the world - according to this article from the FT, UK has 20 whereas the EU has 600. And it looks like the big accountants and lawuers will not be able/willing to second staff to the UK government.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.

That's why numerous countries outside the eu are clamouring to get trade deal negotiations started as quickly as possible.

Yes, of course they're clamouring for trade deals - to replace the ones with them we already had with them through being a member of the EU that we're now abandoning!!!

Do you really think that say we left the eu on a set date that all trade with the eu will cease on that date because it wont

NOBODY has said that trade with the EU will stop. Why do people keep repeating this ludicrous crap? But the trade with the EU will be damaged because of the trade barriers and extra expenses that leaving the Single Market will put up!

Is this really that complicated to understand??

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.

Apart from those countries which already have a trade deal with the EU - we would fall out of those deals and have to renegotiate which can take years eg EU negotiations with India started in 2007 and have still not concluded.

Also, there is a shortage of trade negotiators around the world - according to this article from the FT, UK has 20 whereas the EU has 600. And it looks like the big accountants and lawuers will not be able/willing to second staff to the UK government.

You're quite right, I forgot about the EC Preference agreements that we're throwing away by leaving the EU - whether we somehow manage to remain in the Single Market or not.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?

They'll trade with whoever they get best value for money from, that's the core nature of business. We've just voted to put up trade barriers, making our exports more expensive for them to buy. So they'll more than likely find somewhere else - probably from someone inside the Single Market with them - where they'll get that better value for money.

[Dagenham Rover]

Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈

Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.

That's why numerous countries outside the eu are clamouring to get trade deal negotiations started as quickly as possible.

Yes, of course they're clamouring for trade deals - to replace the ones with them we already had with them through being a member of the EU that we're now abandoning!!!

Do you really think that say we left the eu on a set date that all trade with the eu will cease on that date because it wont

NOBODY has said that trade with the EU will stop. Why do people keep repeating this ludicrous crap? But the trade with the EU will be damaged because of the trade barriers and extra expenses that leaving the Single Market will put up!

Is this really that complicated to understand??

Why the aggression Glyn it's your viewpoint it doesn't mean that my viewpoint is crap or your viewpoint is difficult to understand it's just different to mine

[Glyn_Wigley]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

[drfc1951]

Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?

They'll trade with whoever they get best value for money from, that's the core nature of business. We've just voted to put up trade barriers, making our exports more expensive for them to buy. So they'll more than likely find somewhere else - probably from someone inside the Single Market with them - where they'll get that better value for money.

Dont we import a lot of goods from Germany,so we could stop importing German goods and get better value elsewhere outside the EU.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?

They'll trade with whoever they get best value for money from, that's the core nature of business. We've just voted to put up trade barriers, making our exports more expensive for them to buy. So they'll more than likely find somewhere else - probably from someone inside the Single Market with them - where they'll get that better value for money.

Dont we import a lot of goods from Germany,so we could stop importing German goods and get better value elsewhere outside the EU.

Yes, but because whoever else we deal with will entail both Customs Duties and the costs of Customs clearance, they'll be more expensive than buying from the Germans now while we're in the Single Market together. Otherwise we wouldn't be buying from the Germans now, would we?

If we could get better value outside the EU, we'd be doing it already.

[Glyn_Wigley]

OK, let's try a very simplified illustration of what I'm talking about.

I'm ignoring the costs of freight, insurance and customs clearances for simplification purposes.

Let's say the cost of manufacturing a car is £10,000.

We are in the Single Market.

We, as a car dealership, can buy a car from a German manufacturer for £10,000. Because we are in the Single Market, there is no Customs Duty due when the car is freighted across the UK border, so the cost of getting the car to our showroom is £10,000.

If we buy a car from an American manufacturer, when we import from them Customs Duty of 10% is liable when it crosses the UK border, so the cost of getting the car to our showroom is £11,000.

We leave the Single Market.

Now, whether we buy from Germany or the US, Customs Duty is liable and the cost of getting a car to our showroom from either is £11,000.

So now, yes, the US car is just as cheap to buy as the German car....but the cheapest you can import a car for has risen from £10,000 to £11,000.


And don't forget, that 10% has now also been slapped on the cost of any cars exported from the UK to the EU countries.

[wing commander]

Glyn..We can all cherry pick individual industries to suit our arguments..If it suits I will list the same in reverse for British manufacturing against the European countries with poorer economy's....I can think of 5 examples were we will be better off just of the top of my head..Horses for courses..My industry (steel) will be a lot better off outside the EU...

[Dagenham Rover]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference

[Glyn_Wigley]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference

We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn..We can all cherry pick individual industries to suit our arguments..If it suits I will list the same in reverse for British manufacturing against the European countries with poorer economy's....I can think of 5 examples were we will be better off just of the top of my head..Horses for courses..My industry (steel) will be a lot better off outside the EU...

I only used cars as an example because the Duty rate for them is 10% and it kept the calculations simple.

I'd seriously like to know the perspective of the steel industry. I've audited quite a few steel companies in Sheffield for Customs but none of them ever said anything about any difficulties with the EU.

[wilts rover]

In my opinion we dont have a historical comparison to where we are now - or where we might be soon. The world has changed so much since 1973, the end of the Soviet Bloc, the rise of China and India and multinationals, how our economy will cope with them, I have no idea.

It was much simpler when we still had the Corn Laws - although I believe Glyn thinks they are still in place!

What's that wilts? If you don't know what EU legistlation you object to, you only had to say so.

Oh, and just for your enlightenment, Protectionism is about different Duties levied on importsto protect the home businesses. I presume your wanting 'free market' would mean that you'd want to abolish Anti-Dumping Duty and let China flood the UK with cheap (subsidised) imports, undercutting and then destroying the UK's manufacturing base?

You make a lot of presumptions Glyn.

Where in any of my posts do I say I object to any EU law?

Where do I say I 'want' a 'free market'? I am discussing what Billy wrote in post 68 and my view on it. To infer what 'I want' from anything I have written is a bit of a jump dont you think?

It's a bit like saying, 'this happened in Customs and Excise for the past 20 years - so it is going to happen for the next 20'. We have no idea what will happen in the future - we are in totally uncharted territory. We might scrap all our customs duties - or we might bring back the Corn Laws, who knows?

[Dagenham Rover]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference

We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??

Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact 

[Glyn_Wigley]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference

We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??

Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact 

Really? Did you know that imports from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have to have Customs Declarations when they enter the UK because they're not in the Single Market but are crossing the border into the Single Market. We are putting ourselves in the same position as them - having to make Customs Declarations to the rest of the EU countries when we leave the Single Market.

And don't say 'we don't know' what's going to happen as if the whole problem can be waved away with a waft of the hand. Wrong. You don't know. I do.

[Glyn_Wigley]

We have no idea what will happen in the future - we are in totally uncharted territory. We might scrap all our customs duties - or we might bring back the Corn Laws, who knows?

Really? I didn't know we'd voted ourselves out of the WTO as well as the EU!

[Dagenham Rover]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference

We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??

Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact 

Really? Did you know that imports from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have to have Customs Declarations when they enter the UK because they're not in the Single Market but are crossing the border into the Single Market. We are putting ourselves in the same position as them - having to make Customs Declarations to the rest of the EU countries when we leave the Single Market.

And don't say 'we don't know' what's going to happen as if the whole problem can be waved away with a waft of the hand. Wrong. You don't know. I do.

Oh Glyn, so much holier than thou "I know and youre just a unknowing pleb"  The honest answer is simple you do not know your years of experience tell you the way It will probably go but it does not mean it will end up that way, take the referendum for example anyway just for you make sure you live within Donnys boundarys and then you can stay within the nice comfortable EU bubble   

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/could-doncaster-be-fenced-off-with-scotland-and-stay-in-eu-after-brexit-vote-1-7998045

[Glyn_Wigley]

What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.

Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference

We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??

Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact 

Really? Did you know that imports from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have to have Customs Declarations when they enter the UK because they're not in the Single Market but are crossing the border into the Single Market. We are putting ourselves in the same position as them - having to make Customs Declarations to the rest of the EU countries when we leave the Single Market.

And don't say 'we don't know' what's going to happen as if the whole problem can be waved away with a waft of the hand. Wrong. You don't know. I do.

Oh Glyn, so much holier than thou "I know and youre just a unknowing pleb"  The honest answer is simple you do not know your years of experience tell you the way It will probably go but it does not mean it will end up that way, take the referendum for example anyway just for you make sure you live within Donnys boundarys and then you can stay within the nice comfortable EU bubble   

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/could-doncaster-be-fenced-off-with-scotland-and-stay-in-eu-after-brexit-vote-1-7998045

Well then, convince me how the Customs obligations of every other country on Earth can somehow be magically negotiated away during Brexit. Or will even be on the table, given that it's the default position for countries without Single Market trade agreement. And that the EU has no say in it anyway once we're out of the Single Market, so can't negotiate anything to do with it.

The ball's in your court, I'm open to be convinced.

[Lipsy]

It's all fine. The Remain camp were just scare-mongering. The economy won't tank and prices won't go up... Oh.

http://www.channelweb.co.uk/crn-uk/news/2463866/dell-among-first-vendors-to-enforce-post-brexit-price-hikes

Still, wiv tekken our Kitsonry back. And I am sure that there's some kind of opportunity in all of this.

[Lipsy]

Still, we're giving the Argies a beating again. Dun mek you proud wiv tekken us Kitsonry back.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-argentine-peso-worst-performing-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html