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Managers like Big Sam would never get the big PL jobs as they are seen as unfashionable.
Based on recent tournament performances England are the equivalent of a failing club.
Can you suggest a better alternative? In particular, a better English alternative?
Tbh I think the only side he has never over achieved is Newcastle. For the teams he's managed he always hits is targets and more.
What he did at Bolton was on par with winning the league.
Is he a great manager who's won top leagues? No But we have had managers who have and they did well,not.
Has he got a track record of getting the very best oit of players? Yes.
He's got a knack of getting 11 players to give that extra 10%. If he can continue to do that he may just do a decent job.
Quote from: Nudga on July 22, 2016, 07:26:54 amManagers like Big Sam would never get the big PL jobs as they are seen as unfashionable. Moyes was fashionable? Hodgson was fashionable?Quote from: Jonathan on July 22, 2016, 08:50:20 amBased on recent tournament performances England are the equivalent of a failing club. So were Man City/Chelsea at one time. Like England, all they had going for them was their bank account. The point is, England can afford better than Sam Allardyce.Quote from: The Red Baron on July 22, 2016, 08:11:31 amCan you suggest a better alternative? In particular, a better English alternative?Better is only relevant if they'd be interested. There's little point in listing the God-knows-how-many managers in world football clearly more qualified and capable than Allardyce.We both know that if there were any decent English managers, then Sam wouldn't have gotten within a million miles of the job.Quote from: Red wizard on July 22, 2016, 06:32:10 amTbh I think the only side he has never over achieved is Newcastle. For the teams he's managed he always hits is targets and more.Really? Let's take a look shall we?Limerick - Irish title.Blackpool - sacked.Notts Co - 3rd div title.Bolton - Playoff winners, qualified for UEFA cup. Newcastle - Sacked.Blackburn - Sacked (yes, sacked).West Ham - Contract not renewed after 2 mid-table finishes, the performance not meeting the expectations of the board. Sacked, as far as I'm concerned.Sunderland - Good short-term job done there avoiding relegation, but to be fair, he had 30/38 games...And that's it; the resume of the England manager. hardly inspiring, is it?Quote from: Red wizard on July 22, 2016, 06:32:10 amWhat he did at Bolton was on par with winning the league.No, what Ranieri did with Leicester was amazing. Bolton merely punched above their weight and overachieved for a brief period. Quote from: Red wizard on July 22, 2016, 06:32:10 am Is he a great manager who's won top leagues? No But we have had managers who have and they did well,not.Agreed, but wouldn't you want a great manager? Why are you content with somebody whom, by your own admission, is not a great manager? True, but surely past performance is the best indicator of future performance? Surely you'd want to employ somebody with a track record of success, as opposed to failure? His only meaningful, positive, top flight experience is an overachieving period with Bolton, and keeping Sunderland up. Again, he did have 30 games at Sunderland. Elsewhere, he has a record of serial underachievement, failing to meet expectations, and sackings after a couple of seasons of mediocrity. Quote from: Red wizard on July 22, 2016, 06:32:10 amHas he got a track record of getting the very best oit of players? Yes.2/5, and one of those was 'miraculously' keeping Sunderland up with 30 games to go. Nobody's relegated by the end of the first week in October. Everything clicked for him at Bolton, but I don't think he's achieved anything of note since.Quote from: Red wizard on July 22, 2016, 06:32:10 amHe's got a knack of getting 11 players to give that extra 10%. If he can continue to do that he may just do a decent job. Has he? he's 2/5 at best. It was perhaps in evidence at Bolton and Sunderland, but where was the fabled 'extra 10%' at Newcastle, Blackburn, and West Ham? He underachieved at all 3, which is hardly the sign of somebody who gets the best out of his players.I'm sorry, but the facts just don't support this commonly held delusion that he's some kind of overachieving, inspired man-manager, who can get the best out of players.
Bolton - Took over a team struggling in the second tier, but led them to both domestic cup semi-finals and the play-offs within months of arriving. Won promotion (via the play-offs) a year later, then established them as a force to be reckoned with in the Premier League. Achievements include: Four successive top eight finishes in the PL, reaching the League Cup Final, taking the club into Europe for the first time in their history.
Club success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.
Alf Ramsey had only ever managed one club prior to England, unfashionable Ipswich Town and aside from one single season in the top flight, his management career prior to England was in the third and second tiers. So for perspective, the most successful ever England manager had only had one season of experience in the top flight before he got the job.
Quote from: swintonrover on July 23, 2016, 05:22:51 pmClub success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.SwintonCapello had, I believe, the best win ratio of any England manager since Ramsey. He inherited a side that McLaren had playing dogshite and got them playing a few notches better than dogshite. We're on the same treadmill again though. Obsessing about the manager. It's nothing to do with the manager. It's everything to do with a system that produces generation after generation of really average players and convinces the punters that they are world-beaters. You could have Emperor Augustus in charge and we'll still be shite until we start producing genuinely world-leading players. Instead of producing Raheem Stirling and convincing someone to cough up the ninth largest transfer fee in world history for him.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on July 23, 2016, 09:34:35 pmQuote from: swintonrover on July 23, 2016, 05:22:51 pmClub success is a poor barometer to measure international managers by.Capello won the league in 9/16 seasons, managing AC Milan, Juventus, Roma and Real Madrid. For England? Dog piss.Joachim Low: won 1 German Cup (in 1997) and an Austrian Bundesliga (in 2002). World Cup Winner.Vincente Del Bosque is the only manager ever to have won the Champions League and the World Cup. Give Allardyce a chance.SwintonCapello had, I believe, the best win ratio of any England manager since Ramsey. He inherited a side that McLaren had playing dogshite and got them playing a few notches better than dogshite. We're on the same treadmill again though. Obsessing about the manager. It's nothing to do with the manager. It's everything to do with a system that produces generation after generation of really average players and convinces the punters that they are world-beaters. You could have Emperor Augustus in charge and we'll still be shite until we start producing genuinely world-leading players. Instead of producing Raheem Stirling and convincing someone to cough up the ninth largest transfer fee in world history for him. BSTI think you're missing the point. The England team either competes in international football or it doesn't. If we followed your logic we would withdraw from international competition until we had a group of players who were ready to put on a level of performance at a major tournament that wouldn't reduce England to a laughing stock.Unless we follow that logic, the best we can do is appoint a manager who can get the most out of what he's got. Allardyce has a reputation for doing that. I'm not sure Capello did, and let's face it the showing in the 2010 WC was as abject as anything that England produced under Hodgson.Less than a month ago I'd have been happy to give you 5-1 against England even qualifying for the 2018 WC. Now I'm confident we'll qualify and I also believe we have a manager who won't pick players on reputations built long in the past (qv Raheem Sterling, Jack Wilshere etc) and will play to the strengths we have at the time. Will Allardyce win a major trophy? Probably not. Will he play stylish football? Probably not also. Will he stop England being a laughing stock? I think there's a good chance. Our stock has fallen so far that I'm prepared to take that.
Actually TRB, you have misunderstood the point of my post. The point was that it really doesn't matter what manager we have, unless and until we produce decent players. I don't expect Allardyce to do significantly better or worse than Hodgson, Capello or McLaren. We'll qualify for tournaments (which, admittedly, will be better than McLaren) but that will be that. Because it's not about the manager.
TRB - agree with the crux of what you're saying, but Ashley Williams would also stroll into the England team.
Taught!
You're not in a good mood at all tonight Sammy, are you?
Quote from: Nudga on July 27, 2016, 07:23:39 amTaught!Is that all you have to say on what i have written?, f..king grammar. Sorry nudga, just in a maungy mood tonight.