Owen Smith

[albie]

Billy,

Oily is the nickname Owen Smith has had for a while, including within the Labour Party.

The different perspectives on this are really about your psychological type, whether you are a "soldier", or a "scout". The concept is called "motivated reasoning", and everyone who follows a football team will understand it.

10 minute video that explains the difference between soldier and scout;
Why "scout mindset" is crucial to good judgment | Julia Galef | TEDxPSU - YouTube

Me, I'm a scout I think.

[Bentley Bullet]

That's a very interesting piece. There are a hell of a lot of 'soldiers' on this forum against just a few of us 'scouts'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

1) The second paragraph? f**k me. A clever bit of rhetoric, along the lines of "Look how clever I am. I can put a different spin on the "LEft vs Right debate that is actually not the topic that we should be debating, and drop in a sly abusive epithet for the straw men that that I'm setting up, so that debate can be closed down in future. How f**king smart am I? Well yeah! I AM doing a PhD after all." Good help us if that is impressing intelligent people like you.

2) "There is no point in having a debate as there is no middle ground to debate to. Either start up your tank or start running, those are the options."

Go back and have another read of that. Then go and read it again. And then again.

And then ask yourself what the f**k you are doing with this party. You are so cock sure of yourself that "there is no point having a debate". Even when it is pointed out to you time and again that there are people who actually agree with you on many of the substantive policy issues, but have genuine issues on the detail.

THIS is the Left that I used to know in the 1980s. Intolerant of dissent and debate. Zealously certain of their own correctness. Dismissive and abusive of anyone who raised valid points that countered their view.

You've got the party now. You'd f**king well better be sure that you are correct, because you're clearly not open to discussion, even with people who are very close to you on so many points. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

That was his nickname inside the Labour party was it? Funny. I'd never heard it mentioned until about four weeks ago. Who did you used to hear it mentioned by?

[wilts rover]

Sorry Billy but you appear to be under the misimpression that I am a member of the Labour Party and have a personal say in the leadership election. I am not.

I said in 2003 that after Tony Blair had ignored public opinion for his own personal gain that this was not a party I wished to be involved with - and I would never vote for them again. And I haven't. I thought the tide had turned with Corbyn, but instead you and yours and just building bigger flood barriers.

It isn't about policy issues, it's about trust. I don't trust the PLP or Owen Smith, they are just carrerists in Blairs mould. You think they will win you votes in Cheltenham, Braintree and Henley-on-Thames. Good luck on that one. It's they who will make Labour irrelevant, not Corbyn.

[Sad-Rovers]

Albie

That was his nickname inside the Labour party was it? Funny. I'd never heard it mentioned until about four weeks ago. Who did you used to hear it mentioned by?

Here's it referenced in a book from 2006, seems it's been in popular circulation within Labour for at least a decade, probably missed it during your huff.



Always here to keep you right, Billy

[Sad-Rovers]

Also, here's a Google trend of the term which seems to have actually decreased in popularity during the decade, little spike recently but still not as common as it was in 2006.



Billy, you really are misfiring at the moment. I normally expect better from you. If you need to chat you know where I am.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sad

Let's get this right.

You post up an un-referenced Google Books link as evidence [1], and then a Google Trends graph that shows "Oily Smith" trending at mega-levels [2] before yer man was anywhere near the spotlight [3].

But no. f**k me. Deep Throat or what!?!

But if you're this much in need of a bit of attention, well done. You've got it big man.

[1] Yeah...it's evidence that SOMEONE used that nickname in 2006. Not that it was tripping off every tongue in Westminster. I assume you can guess what some people round here call you. And me.

[2] Even higher than "Neil Taylor Louis Tomlinson" in 2016! Just IMAGINE!

[3] (Do you think there might, just possibly, have been another explanation here? Eh?

[Sad-Rovers]

Fill ya boots, Billy

Also, it's not "trending at mega levels" and never had been, circa 50 mentions a month, the graph is to show that it's been in circulation pretty much as long as Google keeps records and isn't a recent invention by hysterical Corbynistas as you suggest.

Nice attempt at some "Whataboutery" with the Tomlinson links though, you've clearly been knocking about with Wes too much

[Sad-Rovers]

Even higher than "Neil Taylor Louis Tomlinson" in 2016! Just IMAGINE!

[3] (Do you think there might, just possibly, have been another explanation here? Eh?

Considerably higher:



I'm clearly not as famous as I deserve to be. As for "another explanation" I'm all ears, I've presented my facts and citations, let's be having yours.

[Sad-Rovers]

I feel you've struggled slightly with the graph, the figures are total results per month, 0-100. If it was a more popular search it's be graduated in the thousands or even hundreds of thousands.

As I've said, I'm here to keep you right, Billy. No judgement from me on your stunning slip in form recently.

[Copps is Magic]

Sorry but what is 'the debate'? Corbyn is currently the one setting out the political vision for the left and the alternative is where exactly?

Until then, claims that non-labour members/voters are preventing debate (like this thread, embarrassingly) within the labour party are just hot air and bluster. Almost paranoia.

[MachoMadness]

After going on about how Corbyn's policies are sound but his personality doesn't make for an effective leader as he can't alter people's perceptions, BST, you can't then go on about how the perception of Smith as an opportunistic, careerist Blairite is unjust and unfair. You've said over and over again that the membership is a tiny proportion of the population, which is true - if Smith can't even convince them the sky is blue then he must be even more worthless than Corbyn in your view, surely?

Smith is standing on the platform that he isn't Jeremy Corbyn - is that really a platform more capable of winning an election than Corbyn, even with all his faults? Perhaps Owen Smith wouldn't be quite so open to ad hominems if people could work out what the f**king point of him is.

Speaking of ad hominems, why do you think Angela Eagle is continuing to go on about her office window being smashed, even though it wasn't actually her office, and was in fact a stairwell in a communal building that regularly finds itself vandalised with no evidence of it being a targeted attack whatsoever? Maybe the wilful misrepresentation of fact to tar Corbyn and his supporters as condoning violence, coupled with attempting to block them from voting because they're so untrustworthy and obviously trying to hijack the party, is what's got people so angry? What level of debate do you expect when you start with "you're a violent, untrustworthy thug, but let's hear what you have to say"?

[MachoMadness]

Worthwhile read from Owen Jones about the real problems Labour has - doubly worth reading in light of Tom Watson's latest statement. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/10/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-contest-opponents-failures

[BillyStubbsTears]

Whilst, on the other hand...

https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.gtccph1ry

Actually Macho, I'm fully accepting of the argument that the failures of the previous Labour administrations and leaderships led to Corbynism. No question.

By the very same token, Militant Tendency and their fellow travellers led directly to Tony Blair.

It works both ways. Unfortunately, we'll see the same cycle played out over the next 20 years.

It's the eternal failing of the Labour Party. Zealous certainty from each wing that it is correct, followed by disillusionment and loss of interest and a swing the other way.

But doubtless I'll be dismissed as a Blairite for holding such opinions.

PS: Actually, Owen Jones may well be trying to do the job of being the much needed grown up. That pair of articles, taken together, ought to give BOTH f**king sides pause for thought and reflection.

Problem is, I suspect each side will dwell on the article that criticises the other side. Ho hum.

[donnyproletarian]

What was wrong with militant ?At least they had the balls to take on Thatcher in carrying out labour party policies .Building houses while the rest of the country adopted Kinocks dented shield philosophy.Were did that get us ?Slogans like "better labour cuts than tory cuts" A DMBC mafia prior to donnygate getting tory awards for keeping within the budget.For f-cks sake if you support capitalism in all its glory vote Tory they are the experts .I for one want my party back after years of right wing infiltration ,not chasing the mythical middle ground but getting back to bread and butter relevant socialist policies that will engage the forgotten millions .Yes i was a militant and still am.No i am not in momentum but think JC is a breath of fresh air .My only criticism if any of militant is that they have left the labour movement and should be back in the fight offering young people a way forward .JC4PM

[Sad-Rovers]

BST is gonna LOVE you...

[RedJ]

Get the popcorn, Sad...