Article 50

[wilts rover]

Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/

Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?

The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?

The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!

Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!

The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal

Just like we are not going to get a vote on our future relationship with Europe, and the rest of the world for that matter, one we have left the EU. That's politics for you.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/

Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?

The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?

The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!

Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!

The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal

Well, Scotland has now voted on the EU as it is now. Should their votes be ignored?

PS The UK never voted to join the Common Market either.

[Filo]

Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/

Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?

The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?

The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!

Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!

The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal

Well, Scotland has now voted on the EU as it is now. Should their votes be ignored?

PS The UK never voted to join the Common Market either.

A technicality Glyn, the UK voted to remain a member of the common market.

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, and as such should accept the decision of the UK, much like England has to accept that the election of many SNP MP's at the expense of Labour MP's in Scotland heavily contributed to a Tory Government. Incidently in the 1974 referendum the SNP campained to leave the Common Market

[Dagenham Rover]

Interesting article 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38743532

[Glyn_Wigley]

What 1974 referendum..? lol

[Filo]

What 1974 referendum..? lol

OK Glyn, I was a year out, but my point stays the same

[Dagenham Rover]

OK Glyn pedantic as usual it was 1975

 

[DevilMayCry]

I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.

[hoolahoop]

Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/

Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?

The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?

The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!

Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!

The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal

Well, Scotland has now voted on the EU as it is now. Should their votes be ignored?

PS The UK never voted to join the Common Market either.

A technicality Glyn, the UK voted to remain a member of the common market.

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, and as such should accept the decision of the UK, much like England has to accept that the election of many SNP MP's at the expense of Labour MP's in Scotland heavily contributed to a Tory Government. Incidently in the 1974 referendum the SNP campained to leave the Common Market

Filo you have conveniently forgotten that the Scots were persuaded to remain in the UK  by the threat that they would lose their membership of the EU . That fact, many pundits believe, swung the Scots round from Independence......now they are rightfully pissed.

We all will be soon when we realise it's not going to be anywhere as easy as the Tory grandees predicted to get meaningful business post Brexit. When inflation starts to hurt, jobs start to go to Europe and we stagnate then and only then will many of you Brexiters realise that you have not only sold out your Labour roots but yourselves and the future well being of our country.

We are f**ked and Treeza is left stumbleing about looking for meaningful deals with 2nd rate dictators once she has used up the 1st rate one's she is fast running out of .

For what some effing sovereignty because we have made naff all inroads into cutting down on immigration these last few years. Why because it feeds this economy hence the reason that unemployment is so low.

[bobjimwilly]

The whole immigration argument, which is THE main reason many voted to leave the EU,  is one giant smokescreen that the Tories will never tire of using. Fact don't matter anymore. Those who come up with the lies and "alternative facts" then have the audacity to claim those who actually use facts as spreading "fake news". It's f**king depressing

Take just one lie that leavers spouted - that EU nationals are all on benefits and it's cost the country too much:

Looking at benefits for people out of work, migrants from both within and outside the EU are less likely to claim benefits than UK nationals. DWP statistics show that as of February 2015, just over 5 million people were claiming welfare benefits; of those, about 370,000 (7.2 per cent) were non-UK nationals (at the time that they registered for a National Insurance number; and of those, only 114,000 (2.2 percent of the total) were EU nationals.  Since those born abroad make up 16 percent of the working age population, and those born in the EU make up about 6 percent, it can be seen that migrants of both types are considerably less likely to claim out-of-work benefits.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2015/11/migrant-benefits-qa-how-much-do-they-claim-there-problem-and-what-does-pm

[bobjimwilly]

how about the flip side - "EU nationals take all our jobs and are pushing services to breaking point without paying in":

The Office of National Statistics says that while the numbers of EU workers in Britain has risen by 700,000 since 2013, they are outnumbered by the extra one million Britons who have gone into employment in the same period. The number of British citizens working in the UK labour force is now at the near-record level of 28 million. That compares with 3 million foreign nationals.

As the economist Jonathan Portes has pointed out, it is not a zero-sum game in which there are only a fixed number of jobs to go round: “It’s true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can’t take that job – but it doesn’t mean he or she won’t find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration.”

HMRC figures also show that EU migrants more than pay their way. Those who arrived in Britain in the last four years paid £2.54bn more in income tax and national insurance than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013-14. The Office of Budget Responsibility has estimated that their labour contribution is helping to grow the economy by an additional 0.6% a year.

The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs

It took me 2 mins too google this shit - why can't others do the same? We all know why, but no-one likes to say it out loud

[bobjimwilly]

I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.

I hope so too mate.

[bobjimwilly]

Brexit is already costing British businesses; it's cost my employer and extra £800 p/a just in Microsoft Office365 fees alone!

For a company of 200 employees who use the same system it will cost them an additional £8000 p/a

[Lipsy]

And "down my way" has lost £60m because foreign students aren't coming to learn the language. http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15050247.Drop_in_foreign_student_numbers_since_Brexit/

But it's all good news. Nothing bad. It's fine all this taking back control. Nothing bad's happening at all... 

[Dagenham Rover]

We can all quote from opposite sides its the balance thats important some parts will lose some will gain lets all get over it accept the result and do the best possible

[Lipsy]

Well, I am still waiting for some good to come out of this. I suspect it might be wise not to hold my breath.

No-one needs to get over anything, btw. That's democracy for you. 

[idler]

At the end of the day we are all in it together. Every time there is a vote somebody has to lose.
I wonder where we would be now had Labour won the last election?

[selby]

There are two kinds of immigration,legal, and illegal.
   As I understand it anyone who is a national of an E.U. member country has the right  to go to any other member country for employment.
   I have no problem with this at all,also i have no problem with their skin colour or creed whatsoever.
   What I do have a problem with is illegal immigration.
   I was brought up to live within the laws of the land,and would expect to be punished by those laws if i undertook to break them.
   Yet a whole raft of illegal immigrants have entered this country,mainly for economic reasons and our political class have bent over backwards to cover it up,even calling for an amnesty. 
   They themselves are open to be exploited jn housing,  and employment, and by crime.
   Because of this they tend to congregate in one area in towns,do not try to integrate with other people or customs and this causes resentment by people who feel they are being pushed out and forgotten.
   The law of the land has to be implemented,or should be. We have let resentment win by sleepwalking into a situation that  has alienated a large proportion of the population mainly because the political elite have played the race card, because the main illegal immigrants are coloured or from North African or Muslim countries.
  The sad thing is,although this has nothing to do with membership of the E.U. I feel it had a massive bearing on the result of the referendum.
   I found it hard to argue that the vote should have been on an economic basis before the vote,even though I live, and go for a drink in a quite affluent area, and was surprised at the feeling of resentment of my mates.

[Lipsy]

So it's a good thing that our border controls slackened and worsened when a certain Theresa May was Home Secretary... A woman known for saying the right thing at the right time but actually not any good at doing anything.

As I said, I'd love to see some silver lining but it's just constantly pissing it down.

[graingrover]

Having lived and worked for a British owned company on the continent of Europe for more than 40 years I am now retired in Belgium where half of my family live .My first daughter who was born in Spain but brought up in Italy and Belgium is the only one of the family now in UK ( London). Of course after all these years we quite understandably had lost our rights to vote in the referendum.I am still not able to gauge what impact Brexit will have on me and my wife my daughter, son in law  and grand daughter here in Brussels.
      They work as Sports Master and Admin secretary at the British school of Brussels which currently has 1500 students most of whom have British parents working for British  or multi nationals  Belgium .There has not yet been a mass exodus but once Article 50 is triggered the 25,000 British expats in the city will soon be heading off I guess. The school is trying to diversify it's client base by introducing the European baccalaureat besides  GCE A level courses to attract other nations ' expats who wish their kids to have an English language secondary education.
      Many expats are seeking dual nationality status, either Belgian ,for those who qualify through length of residence ,and others Irish through family ties.I don't feel right using another country's passport as a flag of convenience but if UK and the EU are unable to agree to allow each others nationals to continue to live and work in the respective countries I shall have to do whatever I can to protect my hard earned European rights having already lost all civic and voting rights as a British expat .
     I don't get or expect any sympathy on the issue from my British friends nor from the Continentals . Politics is never for the individual pawns in the game is it ! 

[idler]

Lipsy, are there any politicians of any persuasions that you would trust at the minute?
I can't think of any at the minute that I would believe.

[Lipsy]

Idler - Not many. Always had (weirdly) a soft spot for Kenneth Clarke - mostly because he's at the end of his career and says what he wants in a "pissed uncle at Christmas" kind of way. Actually, a few of the old guard (much like Ken) I respect even if I don't agree with them. Most of the rest of them can't so much as fart without someone else telling them when it's okay to do so - and that, I think, is what's wrong with politics at the moment. That and the press (from both and all sides), who have entirely too much sway and the power to form public opinion.

[MachoMadness]

Some truly baffling alternative facts on immigration and free movement bumbling about this thread.

Here's a quote from the EU law on the subject:

"For stays of over three months: the right of residence is subject to certain conditions. EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period."

We have the right to refuse anyone we want. We always did. We get to decide what "sufficient resources" means. We get to grant or deny - and even revoke - residence permits if we want. That the Tories are currently making out like free movement is the answer to all our countries' ills is just going to leave a lot of people feeling quite disappointed when immigration is barely affected.

It's a genuinely confusing strategy from the Tories. They keep allowing immigration to rise to record levels, while simultaneously painting immigrants as some unstoppable virus and blaming them for all our countries' problems. If they don't believe these things, why say it? If they do believe these things, why keep letting them in? It's the one thing I truly don't get. Austerity, bedroom tax, draconian measures at the DWP, while reprehensible, at least make sense from an ideological perspective. The Tory views on immigrants just don't seem to stack up, and it's created a toxic environment where we've voted to take a massive economic hit just to get more control over immigration that we largely already had anyway.

Here's a source for that quote by the way: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html

[Lipsy]

Yup. My major beef about all of this is that for almost every complaint a Leave voter has about the EU, the actual blame or responsibility for the problem (as they see it) lies with our Government(s). Almost every single time.

Which makes me all the more afraid of what lies in store for the future.

[ballysbackin]

Well last night the Ministers did what the population agreed to be done, We are going out, with the vote a very big almost 500 saying Yea!!!!! So it is done and interestingly ALL THREE local MP's voted to go out, non of them were on the list who voted against the matter, so in effect, argue or pit your wits against each other it is done, today a "White Paper". and by 31st March we are on our way. Cheerio and all that. WE. no matter which way we voted are gone. End Of ..Que Serra Serra. KARMA or whatever. Done - Gone _ End Of

[wilts rover]

Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.

I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.

That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?

[Yargo]

I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.

I hope so too mate.

Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)

[Filo]

Forget all the posturing from polititions on both sides, does anyone really think the big busimess's from Europe are just going to lie down and let the European parliament dictate to them who they can trade with and who they can't?

A lot of what is being said is posturing and scaremongering, from both sides

[Glyn_Wigley]

I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.

I hope so too mate.

Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)

Surely it'd be the job of a Brexiteer to do that given the situation is now of their making...how many have done so - is it more than one?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Forget all the posturing from polititions on both sides, does anyone really think the big busimess's from Europe are just going to lie down and let the European parliament dictate to them who they can trade with and who they can't?

A lot of what is being said is posturing and scaremongering, from both sides

When has the EU ever dictated to a business who it can or can't trade with? Is that posturing and scaremongering at all?