Article 50

[Lipsy]

They won't dare even try TRB. Ain't going to happen. Any MP that votes against the will of the people or is seen to be trying to derail Brexit won't last long... The Tory lot will be whipped into shape and the rest will vote to keep themselves in their nice little jobs (apart from the SNP, obvs). If anything, this will legitimise Brexit yet further (though the Daily Fail and the Excrement will ignore that while it busily goes about getting angry and pointing out that it was a *spit* foreign rich woman who 'broke' Brexit).

As I said, this isn't about stopping what people voted for; it's about trying (hopefully) to get the best deal for everyone in the country. Whichever you voted, we're all united in the fact that we voted for what we thought was best for this little island that we live on. And those that voted for Leave voted for the primacy of parliament - they got that today.

Hopefully, we all won something today. We shall see.

[glosterred]

Remember this - prehaps not.

[The Red Baron]

Lipsy

They won't now, but if they can bog down whatever legislation is put forward for long enough they will hope the political wind has shifted.

One thing that might make a difference is if Theresa May decides to go for an early General Election. She could then claim a further mandate to pursue Brexit as well as hoping for a bigger Commons majority. One to watch.

[Akinfenwa]

@glosterred

Who has said otherwise?

Today's ruling just means that the triggering of Article 50 has to be passed by parliament first. And it is highly unlikely that that wont happen.

[Lipsy]

TRB

TM would need 2/3s majority (off the top of my head) to call for an early election...

Unlikely she'd get that, I suspect.

As I said, MPs unlikely to ignore the so-called will of the people. Also, the Tories won't dare risk losing their power in the future (they're good at sticking together when the going gets tough). Short of a few politicians mocking the current situation, there isn't one from any UK party that is campaigning for us to stay in the EU. That, to me, says it all.

[Lipsy]

Akinfenwa,

I think GR's overloaded on a heady cocktail of Farage, Express and DM and he's gone into full 'Kipper battle mode. Maybe I should remind him that the referendum was advisory and non-binding? That's always good for a laugh (sorry GR).

[wilts rover]

Labour's Shadow Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union Keir Starmer was very clear in telling BBC News: "We accept and respect the outcome of the referendum."

But he added that the court ruling should force the government to set out the outline principles on which it would be negotiating.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37860618

Correct Lipsy. However unlike several posters on here some MP's think the whole country - via their democratic representatives - should have a say in what happens next.

I think May will be very, very loath to calling for an early election. Dare she risk letting UKIP in &/or splitting the Tory vote?

[Sammy Chung was King]

Having limited knowledge of the ins and outs it seems to me a protest vote by those who don't like losing their EU money. Protecting the grubby little benefits they get from it.
What it does it make it obvious to other nations we are in turmoil and the deal that we eventually get will be poorer than if they had accepted the people's will.
We are going from a position of strength to one of weakness. They know that there isn't enough support in political circles to stop it but what they will do is damage our position and we will end up with a 'watered down' version of leaving!.
And do you know who will feel it?, me and you in our pockets. They have a right to challenge things as it's a democracy but also as a democracy they also should have decided to put on a united front.

The prime minister is a tory not my party, but they have made her job a lot harder. Unfortunately i see this starting some very challenging times with it leading to an early general election.
We needed stability so she could sort through this mess and get us a deal where we do business with the other Eu nations with as few of the constraints as possible.
There will be multiple complications to deal with as it is, this ruling hinders and doesn't help our country. I voted so that our country had more control over the laws and to stop interference from the EU with their many politically correct laws that have destroyed our law system.
I also wanted some control over how many people were coming into the country. So that more pressure wasn't being put on our NHS, schools and just the overloading of too many and our government not building the system to cope with extra people.
I want us to do our share and help people across the world but not in the numbers we have been doing. We have many fine people coming from abroad who love living here like we do. They work hard and bring up their families and build a good life, good we want people like that.
We just can't keep taking in everybody who wants to come here our system is straining at the seams!.

I take it as a bit of an insult that i took the trouble to vote and now politicians are trying to delay 'Brexit' hoping it goes away. I think it's time the foreign aid we give away is lessened it's been proven that most of the money we give away ends up in criminals hands.
I voted after thinking long and hard about what i wanted to do. What i wanted for my country when my nieces are around and i'm not.
I wanted our country to be open for business with the world and not restricted to a failing Europe. I wanted to see our values retained while also learning from other cultures. I voted for our country to be a help but not a pushover.
I wanted to see the laws in our country going back in time a bit to what they were, when if you did wrong you were punished properly.
Most of all i voted for our country to be run by our government. I know dodgy thinking when the tories are in power but they were elected into power. Yes the leader wasn't but to me she should be deciding with the rest of parliament what does and doesn't happen.
Not a power hungry group of politicians with no affiliation to our country. If they don't want to trade with us they're loss, there is a world out there with better deals and more wealth waiting to improve our country.

[The Red Baron]

I've got a number of points to make on the judicial decision, what MPs say in public and also on the issues around calling an early GE. Will develop when I have a bit more time later today.

[Lipsy]

SCWK,

I could easily and happily counter many of the things you said, but rather than rake over all of this again and raise the temperature of my piss to boiling point, I will say again: yesterday's ruling a) won't stop you getting your Brexit and b) wasn't about stopping it. Murdoch's press would have you believe that it was (and you should be asking yourself why Murdoch and the likes wanted you to vote for Brexit and why he/they continue to choose to use the vile language and headlines we're seeing in certain sections of the press), but - in effect - absolutely nothing has changed beyond some people successfully (for now at least) upholding the primacy and sovereignty of parliament. 

[wing commander]

  The issue isn't wether parliament vote to leave the EU that's not what the vote is about..Its about the terms on what we leave the EU ...The reality is that nothing will change except the possible timescale with mp's deciding on how far they can push the deal terms....
    Unless your a anti democracy party like the lib dems of course whose aim is to reastablish there own party's aims by tring to get the leave voters onside...

[The Red Baron]

Ok here goes.

As far as the court decision goes, the ruling was on a point of law and those attacking judges are aiming at the wrong targets. I do question the real motives of those who brought the case (see below) but I don't think it is particularly wrong that Parliament should have a say in the process of triggering Article 50.

In this case both sides have maintained (because it suited their arguments to say so) that Article 50 is a one-way street and that once the process is started, it is irrevocable. There is alternative legal opinion that it isn't, including from one of the authors of the Lisbon Treaty, but neither side has used this argument. Therefore, because of the significance of the triggering of A50 it doesn't seem unreasonable that Parliament should debate it.

Then we come to the political realities. The Government doesn't want a debate prior to triggering for two reasons:

1. There is a small pro-Remain majority in the Commons and a larger one in the Lords which might be unwilling to vote down a Bill triggering A50 but would be willing to delay it, perhaps by up to 12 months.

2. The Government wants a free hand to negotiate what it considers to be the best deal for the UK. This will not be easy, but the Government thinks it will be harder if MPs and/or Peers include pre-conditions. Continued membership of the Single Market is an obvious one. It sounds like a good thing, but with it will come requirements on free movement, financial contributions and being subject to some, if not all, ECJ rulings.

More later. Just lost the last two paras so need to recompose them. Stupid phone!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Remember this - prehaps not.

That's all very well, but it doesn't say that Parliament will. Big difference.

[Lipsy]

I also remember this:



If people can desperately shout this down as not being a promise, anything written in a thing from a PM that isn't in charge anymore can also be ignored and treated with similar disdain...

[Mike_F]

This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.

69% of those who chose to vote, NOT 69% of the electorate. Different things me old mucker.

[wing commander]

This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.

69% of those who chose to vote, NOT 69% of the electorate. Different things me old mucker.

    That was their decision Mike so that's irrelevant ...69% voted out so he is duty bound to accept the will of his constituents as per the mandate hey voted for...

[glosterred]

Akinfenwa,

I think GR's overloaded on a heady cocktail of Farage, Express and DM and he's gone into full 'Kipper battle mode. Maybe I should remind him that the referendum was advisory and non-binding? That's always good for a laugh (sorry GR).

Ah, more insults, for your info, I neither read the Express, Daily Mail, support Farage or ukip and I voted to remain. But carry on with you insults, I have a thick skin.

[Lipsy]

You clearly missed the light-hearted tone... Nevermind, eh?

And I wasn't insulting you - keep trying.

[Glyn_Wigley]

This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.

69% of those who chose to vote, NOT 69% of the electorate. Different things me old mucker.

    That was their decision Mike so that's irrelevant ...69% voted out so he is duty bound to accept the will of his constituents as per the mandate hey voted for...

What about his constituents he was elected to represent that don't have a vote? Or don't you think he represents them?

[Lipsy]

Not that I think that MPs will ever get to outright reject Brexit, but you make an excellent point. Do MPs respect the referendum or do they also think of the interests of the country and those that didn't or couldn't vote..?

It's not something I have really considered, given that the ongoing discussion/debate has always been between those of that voted one way or t'other.

[Glyn_Wigley]

An MP is elected to represent everybody in his constituency, including those who voted for someone else and also those who didn't or can't vote. They do this by either following the whip of the party they stood for, or by making their own decision (by either voting against the whip or however they want to in a free vote). An MP is his constituency's representative, not their puppet.

They certainly aren't beholden to base their vote on Article 50 on the referendum result because of the above - but also because the referendum did not ask the electorate about Article 50 so cannot be used to say what the public will is regarding any Parliamentary vote on Article 50 - the wording and intention of which the public don't even know now and certainly didn't at the time of the referendum!

However, writing this out did make me think that it's going to interesting whether any eventual Parliamentary vote will be whipped (and therefore which way each party instructs its MPs to vote) in order for the Government to ensure the vote in their favour, or whether it will be a Free Vote..?

[IDM]

All this goes to prove, even further, is that the general public had insufficient information to make an informed choice in the Brexit referendum.  Parliament should have decided, voted on, and made public the options BEFORE the refefrendum - detailing how they would act whichever way the vote went.  Either there would be defined reforms if remain had won, to make the EU membership more effective, or to define how brexit would work, had leave won.

Had they done that, that may or may not have changed the result - that isn't my point.

The point is we now have a clusterf**k. And we as a populace voted for that, blindly. 

We are driving the wrong way down the motorway, with no driver.

[hoolahoop]

What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.

Really I have excepted the decision , unwise though I think it is , but believe that democracy was the winner yesterday.

I want things scrutinised and if that takes months and months then so be it.  We have been heavily involved in every aspect of the EU and to expect that we can completely sever ties without proper consultation in the timescale provided is madness. There are too many issues that need ironing out , I have a youngster at Leeds Uni who was hoping to study abroad but that for instrance has to be putter on the back burner. 

God what legacy and bleak future have you inflicted on our young, middle aged and old'uns ? What have you done ?  What about mine and others plans to retire into a nice sunny place in Europe  - I detest what some of you have done. Will we be able to travel freely, get health care , afford it with the decline in the £, what will be the future status of millions of British abroad ? etc ? It's a shambles and utter madness !

[hoolahoop]

  The issue isn't wether parliament vote to leave the EU that's not what the vote is about..Its about the terms on what we leave the EU ...The reality is that nothing will change except the possible timescale with mp's deciding on how far they can push the deal terms....
    Unless your a anti democracy party like the lib dems of course whose aim is to reastablish there own party's aims by tring to get the leave voters onside...

" anti democracy party " , I would say that they have been consistent for the last 50 years.  What would you have them do a complete volte face ? Look I consider myself as a  Europhile and for me it's quite simple that as part of the 48% ; I don't feel obliged to ditch my beliefs and I wouldn't expect them too either. They, like me, still have the courage of their convictions and I accept that but why should we give up our fight .

Look, if the decision had gone the other way, would you expect Farage, Fox, Davies, IDS ETC. NOT to push for the very best deal to stay in the EU and an eventual 2nd Referendum to "leave" the EU . Of course not they would have fought tooth and nail to obstruct our membership in much the same way as they have for decades......

Somehow you seem to feel those of us opposed to leavinget no longer have opinions or rights

[del boy]

What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.

God what legacy and bleak future have you inflicted on our young, middle aged and old'uns ? What have you done ?  What about mine and others plans to retire into a nice sunny place in Europe  - I detest what some of you have done. Will we be able to travel freely, get health care , afford it with the decline in the £, what will be the future status of millions of British abroad ? etc ? It's a shambles and utter madness !

Are you sure you have accepted the decision Hoola? That paragraph suggests you haven't.

[Lipsy]

There's a difference between accepting something and being happy about it. Brexshirts spent 40 years moaning about being part of the EU and its variants...

[del boy]

I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision

[Lipsy]

I think that it's perfectly possible to acknowledge that a vote has been taken and something is happening as a consequence. You don't have to be happy about that. A number of Leave voters think that 48% of the people that bothered to vote should just go quietly into the night or "fit in or f**k off". I'm not sure that it works that way, and nor should it.

[IDM]

I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision

b*llocks..

I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..

The issue now, is how to deal with it..  That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.

[del boy]

I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision

b*llocks..

I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..

The issue now, is how to deal with it..  That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.

Your fuming about it also. I accept you may not be happy about the decision that's fine but don't pretend to have accepted the decision when clearly you haven't. And please don't say my opinion is b*llocks just because it differs to yours