The Ref

[Donnywolf]

I don't often criticise officials but today they were terrible. Probably worst I've seen.

On the other hand I usually criticise the Officals and today they were terrible. This one was the worst I have seen since he last Reffed us v Bury

Muppetry of the highest order

[IDM]

Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.

No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.

Sorry but I have to disagree...

Yes, we were not at our best, crossing was below par as was shooting, but we created plenty of chances.

Of course the referee had a bearing on the result!!  A blatant handball by Ellison, for a penalty at 1-1 missed.  OK no guarantee we would have scored but even so.. 5 minutes later their no 5 kicks out at Marquis - soft, but a straight red in this day and age.  Both incidents right in front of the west stand lino.. 

Both had a bearing, as did the numerous non bookings which must have affected Morecambe's play.. They pushed the boundaries and the ref let them!!

As for that corner you refer to, it looked like the ball rolled off their defender's toes to me..

[Copps is Magic]

I think you may need to calm down a bit, reflect a little and, watch some replays or something.

Every single thing you've said there is wrong. The ball hit his hand but it wasn't an intentional handball. The guy who 'kicked out' at Marquis happened to be 2 yards away from him at the time  and it was an ironic act of petulance. The corner, as others have pointed out, wasn't a corner.

Morecambe did well to stop us playing, especially in the 1st half. Like Fergie said, give them some credit, stop blaming the ref, and move on to the next game.

[IDM]

Sorry we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I know we were below par today - we would possibly have missed the penalty anyway, but I disagree with your view on the decision.  Also that kick at Marquis looked a lot closer to me.  Also isn't the rule "kick or attempt to kick"?  The emphasis being on "attempt"..

We aren't going to win every game, being top if the league doesn't give us that right at all.  We have to work hard for the points, and we weren't quite there today.

Do you not agree that Morecambe's playing style may have been different had the referee clamped down on the fouls and time wasting?

[drfchound]

I also have to disagree about "the kick" CiM.
Although it was minimal there certainly was contact.

[Copps is Magic]

I could see the entire west stand in between the defender's leg and John Marquis.

Does big John strike you as the type of guy to get kicked and just walk off? 

[drfchound]

Actually, yes.
He is good at not responding.
The kick definitely made contact though mate.

[Pancho Regan]

Ref got most things right, I thought. Very combative game, Marquis gave as good as he got.

Ref got lots wrong in my opinion, along with inept linesman in West Stand side.
How did the kick on Marquis go unpunished?

Poor officials this season.

[dickos1]

Penalties for handball are hardly ever intentional, if you put your hands in the air and it hits them it's a penalty

[Donnywolf]

Have to agree the Ref could have altered the result for sure - for most of the reasons given already

Have not seen any mention either of the "offside" goal by Marquis - was it offside or not ?

Ellison did have both hands up in (what they now call) an unnatural position - Penalty for sure which we may have scored.

Muppet Ref did one thing right - lecturing their Keeper after 15 mins or so for time wasting - and then errrr that was that end of story / let him take the p*** for the rest of the time and WHEN are we going to go back to taking goal kicks from the side th ball went out. It was never difficult to decide which side a Goal kick should be taken  ..... and WHEN 2 ... are we going to tell the opposition that if any of their Players are injured and the Ref plays on and then they kick it out WE are going to keep the ball when we restart play ?
-

[Copps is Magic]

if you put your hands in the air and it hits them it's a penalty

Simply not true. The position of your hands has no bearing on whether its an infringement. The infringement is whether the referee judges it to be intentional. And to make that decision he takes into account the relative distance and position between the last play of the ball and the players hand.

Technically your hands are in the air 99% of the time. How could the rules be any other way? By 'in the air' you actually mean rougly head height or above. How would they implement that? There was a perfect example of it earlier (may have been later can't remember) near the East stand where the ball was handled but it clearly wasn't a handball.

Don't get me wrong, I think irrationally about these things just as much as the next person. I was screaming penalty in the ground. But couple of hours later I calm down.

[Dagenham Rover]

I think you may need to calm down a bit, reflect a little and, watch some replays or something.

Every single thing you've said there is wrong. The ball hit his hand but it wasn't an intentional handball. The guy who 'kicked out' at Marquis happened to be 2 yards away from him at the time  and it was an ironic act of petulance. The corner, as others have pointed out, wasn't a corner.

Morecambe did well to stop us playing, especially in the 1st half. Like Fergie said, give them some credit, stop blaming the ref, and move on to the next game.

Wasn't there today due to work however thats irrelevant its the intent that counts   he kicked out the intent is there.

You see the name Illderton and you know the chances are he'll be crap

[Copps is Magic]

True. But I think this incident has to be seen to be believed. I hope there's a clip. It was kind of comical.

As I said, refs are refs, as long as the two most important factors determining the outcome are the performances of either team (as it was today), I don't care.

[idler]

Tony Coleman lashed out in frustration in a game against Colchester in 1967.
He was nowhere near their player but was rightly sent off.

[dickos1]

if you put your hands in the air and it hits them it's a penalty

Simply not true. The position of your hands has no bearing on whether its an infringement. The infringement is whether the referee judges it to be intentional. And to make that decision he takes into account the relative distance and position between the last play of the ball and the players hand.

Technically your hands are in the air 99% of the time. How could the rules be any other way? By 'in the air' you actually mean rougly head height or above. How would they implement that? There was a perfect example of it earlier (may have been later can't remember) near the East stand where the ball was handled but it clearly wasn't a handball.

Don't get me wrong, I think irrationally about these things just as much as the next person. I was screaming penalty in the ground. But couple of hours later I calm down.

Of course it has a bearing,
If they deem the hands to be in an unnatural position, they're supposed to give a penalty.
You can't determine if it's intentional or not any other way

[Copps is Magic]

I can assure you a phrase such as unnatural position would never feature in any rules. What exactly is a 'natural' position for a footballers hands? Half the time defenders hands are up high when they're getting leverage for headers.

[dickos1]

I know it won't be in the rules,
But that's how refs determine whether it's intentional or not.

"Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

David Elleray consults his assistant during a club
Referees often consult their assistants on decisions
"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

[PDX_Rover]

Ilderton is an awful ref. When I heard we had him today I shook my head. Sounded like he missed a lot.

[Filo]

No one has mentioned the full blooded assualt on Connor Grant with their player going down making he had an head injury

[redwine]

I can assure you a phrase such as unnatural position would never feature in any rules. What exactly is a 'natural' position for a footballers hands? Half the time defenders hands are up high when they're getting leverage for headers.

Normally the natural position is up a slappers skirt       

[nortikorner]

The ref are not accountable the same as players or managers

[RoversAlias]

Ellison's arms were in the air as a reaction, protecting his face from the cross. That to me means if the ball hits his arm (as it did) it is a penalty.

As for the kick out, it's a red card all day long. You don't need to make contact to be sent off, we see players rightly sent off for nudging their face towards an opponent, what their player did toward Marquis was certainly as bad and deserving of a red.

I think the result was fair today but these incidents are still worth pointing out. I didn't realise Eddie Ilderton was the ref as I no longer buy the programme, but I've never knowingly seen him have a good game with us and that hasn't changed today.

[swintonrover]

When the ball hit Ellisons arm, he turned and looked at the lino in panic, which says all you need to know.
And we could have a case with the kick on Marquis as the ref didn't see it so retrospective action could be taken. Even if there's no contact, an attempted swing at an opponent is a straight red.

[The Red Baron]

Scunthorpe player was sent off for aiming a kick.

[roversam]

Eddie  Ilderton  is one of the worst refs I've  seen it's all been said  on here  about his shite  decisions  which  come natural  to him the worst one was the stonewall  penalty  he miseed when  Ellison was  doing a keeper  impression  I'm sure Ildertons  eyes are painted  on

[Donnywolf]

When the ball hit Ellisons arm, he turned and looked at the lino in panic, which says all you need to know.
And we could have a case with the kick on Marquis as the ref didn't see it so retrospective action could be taken. Even if there's no contact, an attempted swing at an opponent is a straight red.

I agree but then it may aid others to the detriment of us. He may have been sent off with a different Ref or this one on a different day and it may have altered the result

If they look back at him and ban him it may be for a game that is (say) v Pompey and actually helps them and further punishes us.

I always think it is barking when (as recently) West Ham had a man sent off v  Man U who then went on to win - the FA then overturned the decision but West Ham had already lost the game and the 3 Points. Another instance where Refs can affect the result for sure

[Donnywolf]

I can assure you a phrase such as unnatural position would never feature in any rules. What exactly is a 'natural' position for a footballers hands? Half the time defenders hands are up high when they're getting leverage for headers.

When jumping yes but for crosses look how many Players now put their hands behind their backs so the ball cannot hit their hand/arm

If they dont and the ball hits them it leaves their Team at the mercy of the Ref some who would give a Pen and some who wont. It takes that variable out if it does not hit the hand in the first place.

There is no way Ellison should have had his hands where he did yesterday because he was not challenging in the air for the ball and for me in my humble opinion it was a Penalty all day long and the West Stand "assistant" Referee (assistant being a bit of a misnomer) had a clear view and should have flagged straight away. The Ref was probably unsighted

Incidentally I asked earlier in the Thread - was JM Offside when he scored early doors ? The contentious stuff is never replayed so you never get a second look.  I had the opinion that Copps was "onside" a few minutes later and was given off by the same Lino.

[Avsuptem]

If it's hand to ball it's a penalty, if it's ball to hand it's not. If the arm is up in the air in deliberate attempt to block the potential passage of the ball it's an easy decision to make. If the arm just happens to be in the path of the ball some refs would give it some would not. The agonizing thing is that DRFC never seem to get these decisions in our favor.

[IDM]

True. But I think this incident has to be seen to be believed. I hope there's a clip. It was kind of comical.

As I said, refs are refs, as long as the two most important factors determining the outcome are the performances of either team (as it was today), I don't care.

I would like to agree with you, but yesterday the officials became a 3rd most important factor.

And I am perfectly calm and rational.  Thinking rationally the ref and the assistant made some blatant wrong decisions.  The passage of time wont change that, even if we win the league by 10 points the errors of yesterday will still be there..

[IDM]

No one has mentioned the full blooded assualt on Connor Grant with their player going down making he had an head injury

The clearing header in the penalty area in the first half?? Their player took out Grant in the air well after he headed the ball.. As clear a yellow card as you'll ever see, one of the numerous decisions, had they been punished correctly, may have seen Morecambe's players being a little more cautious afterwards...