Little boy blue. Tonight itv1 9pm

[Syme]

Is that all you got.???????? A misspelled word cor you are very clever - Take no notice of anything I say I am crackers and it is recorded so. I take the tablets to prove it to.. Welcome to my world won't you step inside ?

You have no interest in the facts.

For example you claimed people were in the ground watching the match in an orderly manner. How did the coroner find deaths occurred from 14:57 onward?
 

[Syme]

It's called accountability

Seems like ignorance is bliss for you

[GazLaz]

It appears the old bill will set any f**ker on.

[not on facebook]

This Hillsboro thing Iam on the footing that blame stands at the doors of all party's as in the FA ,police  and the fans them selves.

The FA > was Hillsboro the correct stadium as it was an accident waiting to happen going on previous games held there and he fact that lpool fans were placed at leppings lane end.

SYP > cant really 2nd guess their actions before the incident ,but they do need to be looked into for the cover up they played out afterwards,and this comes from the very top of SYP not pitch side police officers.

Lpool fans > it's impossible to not take into account the disorder or panic that was panning out outside the ground upto the events > back then it was normall and accepted and boasted about within lpool fans the amount of fans that would turn up to jib in at whatever game.> the more massive the game the bigger the numbers will try to jib in and will get in.

All three points above overlap each other no matter what way you look at it .

[Syme]

Problem is there's no evidence to support your third point about the fans. It's a line trotted out from time to time, but there's no basis for it.

[not on facebook]

Syme you can take it from me that lpool fans jibbing into grounds via whatever means is FACT .

It happened on the day of Hillsboro and it happened at games before Hillsboro aswell as at games after Hillsboro with lpool fans.

You can bet your house on the FACT that it also happened at the famous lpool game out in Istanbul some years after hillsboro but in a far more subline way.

It will be very hard too find out the number of lpool fans that went too Hillsboro with intent of jibbing in,but the way events played out that day for any ticketless lpool fans would have been a very very easy jib.

It's hard to then take out of the account that some lpool fans helped cause the problems at leppings lane.

In hindsight the forest fans should have had leppings lane and lpool the Hillsboro Koop ,that would have helped but you would still have had the jibbers.

[selby]

Syme there is a basis for it with some supporters about at that time,that like myself were caught up in it at other grounds, prior  to Hillsborough.

[not on facebook]

I recall been outside the ground some 10
/15 mins after  a york city v lpool facup game  had kicked offf  way before Hillsboro .

There was quite a few lpool still outside the ground without tickets as match tickets were been passed down back to them from inside the ground.

So you can only guess how many more jibber she would be out for a facup semi final.

[Syme]

not on facebook - thanks for the assurance but just because you say something doesn't make it fact. So i'm afraid it's just unsubstantiated speculation

selby - whilst i have no doubts you experience that, it has no real relevance to Hillsborough.

The Taylor Report addresses the ticketless fans argument. It doesn't stack up, not in any scale that would hold individuals responsible. Across all the pens, they were under capacity, a lot of people were still outside. The problem was the pens in the centre were wildly over capacity due to a failure by the police to close off the access tunnel.

First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.

However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there
would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/Taylor%20Interim%20Report.pdf

[not on facebook]

Syme is your life built on facts that can be backed up


While the police are doing their upmost to controll the disorder and panic outside the gates on leppings lane ,it would have been a jibbers perfect smoke screen to get into the ground amongst all the chaos .

Iam not putting any certain % the blame onto the jibbers as I don't know the exact numbers but for sure any ticketless lpool fan that day got in as the gates were opened.

[Syme]

When you're apportioning blame for the deaths of 96 people it's quite important to rely on facts that can be backed up.

And a point of order, the 'disorder' outside the gates - that was also of the police's making.

[Not Now Kato]

Welcome to my world... The first Coroner said all those who were dead were dead earlier than they actually were but nobody held him to account. Won't you come inside - it is nice in here. Nobody cares. 1989 a lot has happened since then. So people died and others are looking for someone to blame, it is nice in here. 

I care, it's called JUSTICE.
 

[Syme]

Nice story.

What's it got to do with the Hillsborough disaster?

[Syme]

Strange answer to a straightforward question.

[not on facebook]

Unless I get the wrong end of the stick syme you don't accept that jibbing in don't happen and put it down to hear say .

I have said it happens ,another chap said it happens and now bally1950 has remarked that he has seen it while on duty.

It's normally for threads to go down different roads from the main title as in this case ,but you seem not to take onboard that jibbing takes place.

The reason why it can't be backed up is becsaue it's not against the law and I doubt anyone has ever been arrested for it hence no records  > so it can't be backed up on paper.

Back to Hillsboro ,it's out in the open for whoever to make their mind up on if the jibbing culture which was at its peak back then if it  played into the events that day .

I for one would not be supprised if it did ,but to how large an extent it played is anyone's guess,

Like I said a few posts back and in order I personally blame > The FA for the match day problems before kick off  > SYP for the cover up > lpool fans to some extent for chaos outside >

Every action has a reaction and all 3 actions above played a part in various extents to what happened at Hillsboro.

If there had not been this terrible day at Hillsboro ,the FA would have played the followings year semi final at Hillsboro > and that's after problems with Spurs fans getting crushed in exact same pen for the wolves v Spurs semi final the previous year along with league games that have been played at Hillsboro when a large away following in the exact same pen.

[Syme]

I for one would not be supprised if it did ,but to how large an extent it played is anyone's guess,

Like I said a few posts back and in order I personally blame > The FA for the match day problems before kick off  > SYP for the cover up > lpool fans to some extent for chaos outside >

You obviously haven't read my previous posts. I provided figures for this, taken from the Taylor report. There was likely to have been some small scale 'jibbing' but not on a scale that would have contributed to the disaster.

And you haven't read my other post about the chaos outside the turnstiles. This was of the police's making. Again, that's detailed in the Taylor report.

[not on facebook]

No report is going to change what I think wrong or right ,as a rule of thumb I just don't trust them and Iam more than happy to plod along with my mind set .

The Taylor report could be bang on ,but I have never read it .

I think that the blame 1st starts at the top with the FA !then filters downwards through other causes.

If there had been no police cover up about the time of deaths in the first place  and that order came from above them I guess I doubt there would have been half the fallout over the event.

I mean when the police are found out to have changed witness statements and even statements from their own officers who served that day ,you tend to lose all belief in authority .thats when I made my mind up on events ,to which I don't think Iam that far from the mark.

No report by justice whoever will turn my head  > because they come from near enough the same circles and authority.

Would not trust anyone from that part if british establishment if they told me what day it was.

[Syme]

What has hooliganism got to do with Hillsborough?

[not on facebook]

What has hooliganism got to do with Hillsborough?

I will give you one answer that question that don't need no research or official facts and figures

Fencing

No holligans > no fencing around english satdiums pitch side > no Hillsboro problems .

[idler]

So the fences and pens that were a big part in this disaster were nothing to do with hooliganism?
In the 1923 FA cup final there were at least 123,000 in a Wembley with a capacity of 100,000. Imagine that scenario with a hooligan element of later years involved.
I also remember Liverpool at Wembley years later and fans climbing up walls to get in. Some fans will always travel to games without a ticket.

[Syme]

I'm talking about the events of the day. In what part was hooliganism on the day responsible for what happened?

[Syme]

Talking of losing, I'm increasingly convinced that you are losing your mind.

But back to the topic in hand - you mentioned hooliganism in the context of Hillsborough. It's a bit of a long shot, but could you explain what you meant by this?

not on facebook - given the fences went up as a result of hooliganism, why are you not on your list of things to blame? Perhaps you could swap yourself for the Liverpool fans you previously held responsible?

[Syme]

It's a bit of a long shot, but could you explain what you meant by this?

Yes, I thought it might be.

If you are indicative of the organisation for whom you worked, it's no wonder it took 27 years to get justice.

[idler]

If the police hadn't opened the gates and fans had died there would have been hell on and they would have been blamed.
We only know that opening the gates was the wrong decision because of what followed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The thing that is wrong is any lies told by the police to cover anything up.
It doesn't make it right but in a state of panic some people tell lies and then dig themselves in deeper.

[Syme]

Two things on that idler.

Firstly, the crowd outside the gates formed as a result of police failures. They didn't open enough turnstiles and they didn't perform checks further away from the ground as they had in  previous years. In 1988 an informal cordon was established to control flow rates to the ground. There was 172 less officers working in 1989 than in 1988 and Duckenfield himself has said he wasn't aware of the cordons the previous year and that it should have been thought about.

Secondly, if you're going to open the gates, you need to plan for what happens next. There was a plan called the Freeman Tactic, which says close the tunnel off and direct people to the side pens. This tactic wasn't used. Duckenfield has admitted that this was the direct cause of 96 deaths.

[idler]

In that case then Syme surely Duckenfield Bears most of the responsibility for the decision making. I'm sure that I read something that he was only given this particular event because he knew someone higher up while better qualified, more experienced senior officers were overlooked or discounted.

[Syme]

Ultimately he was the man at the top on the day and does bear the responsibility - which he has admitted:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31928476


The further cases for the CPS may relate to cover-ups and things like that.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Syme is your life built on facts that can be backed up

Everybody's life is based on facts. To be otherwise means you live in a fantasy.

[Syme]

Everybody's life is based on facts. To be otherwise means you live in a fantasy.

Quite...

"Welcome to my world, won't you come inside"......

[Glyn_Wigley]

And I thought Life On Mars was a neat piece of drama. I never realised it was a documentary till now.