Election Manifestos and Policies

[wilts rover]

What do you not understand about being expelled from the Labour Party means you are not a member of the Labour Party - whatever you call yourself! Here is some reading for you:

James Ramsay MacDonald became Britain’s first Labour Party Prime Minister for a few months in 1924. A committed socialist and pacifist, he returned to 10 Downing Street in June 1929, but the country was overwhelmed by the Great Depression and in August 1931, after protracted discussions with the other party leaders and at the urging of King George V, MacDonald formed a national government of leading Labour, Conservative and Liberal politicians.

Most of the Labour Party was horrified and, for putting the national interest before party interest, MacDonald was denounced as a traitor to his class and expelled. The public thought differently and a general election in October gave the government its ‘doctor’s mandate’ with an unprecedentedly massive majority. It was dominated by the Conservatives, whose leaders Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain effectively took control of domestic policy. MacDonald concentrated on foreign affairs and the League of Nations.
http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/fall-ramsay-macdonald

Macdonald was the first British Labour Prime Minister, but his decision in 1931 to lead a coalition government was considered a betrayal by many in the party he had done much to create.

In 1929, MacDonald returned to power, but his government was soon faced with a worldwide economic recession, for which it was not prepared. MacDonald and other leading ministers, notably the chancellor Philip Snowden, felt they had no alternative but to cut public expenditure, including unemployment benefit. The cabinet split, and MacDonald formed a National Government with Conservative, and some Liberal, support. The subsequent general election decimated the Labour Party but left MacDonald and his tiny handful of 'National Labour' members of parliament in power - although as little more than a front for a Conservative-dominated administration.

MacDonald soldiered on as prime minister until 1935. He was, however, an increasingly forlorn and unhappy figure, treated with contempt by Conservatives and with hatred by members of the party of which he had once been the unchallenged and charismatic leader.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/macdonald_ramsay.shtml

The consequences were dramatic. MacDonald led a ‘National Government’ comprised of the Conservatives, some Liberals and very few Labour MPs; all members or associates of the National Government were expelled by the Labour Party.
https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2016/09/21/labour-unrest-ramsay-macdonald-and-the-labour-party-1931/

Quite a different read to the one I read, which asks the question, which is the most reliable read and is the opinion of the writer of each version.
It is fine for you to believe your version if you want to.
As is true in politics, put your own spin on it and see who believes your version.

How many times do I have to tell you It's Not My Version - its a fact. From a verifiable and academically reputable source. Or in this instance three verifiable and academically reputable sources sources:

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/fall-ramsay-macdonald - History Today one of (if not the ) leading historical magazines in publication for over 70 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/macdonald_ramsay.shtml - the BBC, you may have heard of them

https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2016/09/21/labour-unrest-ramsay-macdonald-and-the-labour-party-1931/ - an academic study into the the History of Parliament governed by its Trustees, who are mainly Members and Officers of both Houses of Parliament (that big fancy building in London, you may have heard of it)

I could probably find another 30 that say the same thing. I would struggle to find one that says Macdonald was still a member of the Labour Party after 1931 - because he wasn't. However if you can - please show us?

I have never said that was still in the Labour Party.

Yes you did. this is what we are arguing about - how long was the Labour Party in power and what responsibility did it have for the National Debt in the 2's and 30's. During this time Labour were in power for 3 years - the Conservatives (including their time as the leading power in the National Government) for 15 years.

However, as a staunch Labour man of his time, he would not have changed his values.

Despite all you have read about him being called a traitor and expelled from the Party for not upholding Labour values but instead following the Tory line.

His then cabinet did include some Conservative members but none of them held senior posts.
I could probably find a bunch of people to support my viewpoint too.

Go on then.

[drfchound]

This is getting tedious now, so, either you or Glyn ( i now cant be bothered to read back through the posts) said you could get 30 people to back your story up, so one of  you go first.

Regarding Mc Donald being a staunch labour man, well leopards don't change their spots do they?
Again, i dont recall a post where i actually did say he was still in the Labour party, perhaps you have time to read back and highlight this.


That 15 years thing is just not true either, add up the years and list the 15 you are on about.

Anyway, as you have now reverted to sarcasm using derogatory terms to respond to me i will call it a day.

[drfchound]

His then cabinet did include some Conservative members but none of them held senior posts.

What about the posts held by neither Conservative nor former-Labour but by the Liberals? I wouldn't call Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary non-senior posts..!

Glynn, much twisting of words here.
Did i ever say that Liberals hadnt held senior posts in the cabinet.??
No is the answer.

[bobjimwilly]

At last, a manifesto that 95% of us can and should get behind: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39930865

And if anyone wants to suggest Labour's sums don't add up, I would suggest rather than criticise, why not just compare it with what the Tories are "offering", and remind yourself on how austerity is working out...

[drfchound]

The austerity piece is written in The Guardian, traditionally a left leaning paper.

[Glyn_Wigley]

His then cabinet did include some Conservative members but none of them held senior posts.

What about the posts held by neither Conservative nor former-Labour but by the Liberals? I wouldn't call Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary non-senior posts..!

Glynn, much twisting of words here.
Did i ever say that Liberals hadnt held senior posts in the cabinet.??
No is the answer.

Are you still maintaining it's a Labour government even now though?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Regarding Mc Donald being a staunch labour man, well leopards don't change their spots do they?

Are you seriously telling everybody here that the Conservatives and Liberals both not only fully supported a full-blooded Labour manifsto, but also actively helped in carrying it out by being the Ministers that administered it?

Or - as history properly records - it was a true coalition and therefore it was government by compromise by all sides?

[wilts rover]

Regarding Mc Donald being a staunch labour man, well leopards don't change their spots do they?

Well yes. Because that is why he was expelled from the Labour Party for carrying out Conservative policies that the Labour Party opposed and did not believe a socialist would have any involvement with.

Again, i dont recall a post where i actually did say he was still in the Labour party, perhaps you have time to read back and highlight this.

If you insist:
In Post 56 you wrote (my bold):

During the following 30 years split almost equally between Tory and Labour governments the debt came down until WW2 came along…

In Post 68 you wrote (my bold)

Well i guess that is based on the fact that you don't want to consider the spell from 29-35 when McDonald was PM as the head of the Labour Party.

That 15 years thing is just not true either, add up the years and list the 15 you are on about.

You are quite correct- I had not included their period as part of Lloyd George's coalition immediately following the Armistice. So between the wars the Conservatives (either alone or as part of a coalition) were in power for a total of 17 years and 2 months:
Dec 1918 to October 1922 - 3 years 10 months
Nov 1922 to Dec 1923 - 1 year 1 month
October 1924 to May 1929 - 4 years 7 months
October 1931 to Nov 1935 as part of National Government - 4 years
Nov 1935 to outbreak of war September 1939 - 3 years 11 months

Whereas Labour (either alone or as part of a coalition) were in power for:
January 1924 to October 1924
May 1929 to October 1931

a total of 3 years and 2 months

And just to remind ourselves what I have said several times already in this thread, the official Labour Party were not involved in the National Government after the October 1931 election. They were the opposition (what was left of them).

Anyway, as you have now reverted to sarcasm using derogatory terms to respond to me i will call it a day.

[Filo]

Back on topic, what is there not to like about the Labour manifesto after todays official launch?

[not on facebook]

I can certainly see why Syme has been banned from this forum and Oslo hasn't.

Get him back in I say and he was not banned on my account for the record,I thought he was on holiday or something.

Variety the spice of life is what I stand by .



As for me having racist undertones what a load of poppycock ,I say what I think or see and I could be wrong or right on that view as that's all it is a view .

i don't subscribe too any right wing party's or go on any right wing. March .i do have some right wing friends but allways keep them at arms length .

If I call Diane abbot out for whatever ,it's not my fault that she has dark skin it's  her fault for been a fcuking idiot .

[Susan Abbott]

I like the Labour manifesto, those industries should never have been nationalised in the first place. I value the NHS, the tories seem hell bent on destroying it. I will vote for the policies rather than the person

You can put anything you want on a manifesto, particularly when you know you haven't a prayer of implementing it as Labour under Corbyn are just a talking shop of leftist ideals of a distant past .
I worked through Labours lefties manifesto of the past and creating employment has never been their forte . Strikes and power cuts were the order of the day .
We are reasonably rich country on the edge of a major shift in its direction , but it's always been the Tories who have attracted the jobs and steered this country to Low interest rate of 0.25% compare this to 15-17% of the 70s with high-per inflation in double figures and a 3 day week . It will not take long when Brexit kicks with Labour to go back to the days of no work no food no future for the many . Corbyn' s Monemtum cronies will destroy our ability to grow by scaring away investors with the crazy ideas of taxing everything and everyone and loose vital manufacturing jobs . The country has to be pragmatic and look beyond this day and plan carefully through this minefield of Brexit . 

[Filo]

I like the Labour manifesto, those industries should never have been nationalised in the first place. I value the NHS, the tories seem hell bent on destroying it. I will vote for the policies rather than the person

You can put anything you want on a manifesto, particularly when you know you haven't a prayer of implementing it as Labour under Corbyn are just a talking shop of leftist ideals of a distant past .
I worked through Labours lefties manifesto of the past and creating employment has never been their forte . Strikes and power cuts were the order of the day .
We are reasonably rich country on the edge of a major shift in its direction , but it's always been the Tories who have attracted the jobs and steered this country to Low interest rate of 0.25% compare this to 15-17% of the 70s with high-per inflation in double figures and a 3 day week . It will not take long when Brexit kicks with Labour to go back to the days of no work no food no future for the many . Corbyn' s Monemtum cronies will destroy our ability to grow by scaring away investors with the crazy ideas of taxing everything and everyone and loose vital manufacturing jobs . The country has to be pragmatic and look beyond this day and plan carefully through this minefield of Brexit . 

No mention of the NHS, or the failed austerity. The attack on the disabled, whilst the rich just get richer with tax cuts in your brainwashed view there

P.s. No food?

How do you explain the dramatic rise in the number of foodbanks in the 7 years the Tories have been in power?


No future?

What future have the many disabled got now their money has been taken away from them?

[not on facebook]

I vote for Susan abbot

Sorry it's Susan Abbott

[drfchound]

Susan, well said, lots of sense in that post.
No doubt that Glyn and Wilts will be back at you soon.
I have got bored of them now.

[Susan Abbott]

I like the Labour manifesto, those industries should never have been nationalised in the first place. I value the NHS, the tories seem hell bent on destroying it. I will vote for the policies rather than the person

You can put anything you want on a manifesto, particularly when you know you haven't a prayer of implementing it as Labour under Corbyn are just a talking shop of leftist ideals of a distant past .
I worked through Labours lefties manifesto of the past and creating employment has never been their forte . Strikes and power cuts were the order of the day .
We are reasonably rich country on the edge of a major shift in its direction , but it's always been the Tories who have attracted the jobs and steered this country to Low interest rate of 0.25% compare this to 15-17% of the 70s with high-per inflation in double figures and a 3 day week . It will not take long when Brexit kicks with Labour to go back to the days of no work no food no future for the many . Corbyn' s Monemtum cronies will destroy our ability to grow by scaring away investors with the crazy ideas of taxing everything and everyone and loose vital manufacturing jobs . The country has to be pragmatic and look beyond this day and plan carefully through this minefield of Brexit . 

No mention of the NHS, or the failed austerity. The attack on the disabled, whilst the rich just get richer with tax cuts in your brainwashed view there

P.s. No food?

How do you explain the dramatic rise in the number of foodbanks in the 7 years the Tories have been in power?


No future?

What future have the many disabled got now their money has been taken away from them?

Most of what you grieve about can be put into the last 10 years where the population was allowed to grow beyond our capacity to maintain it , add this to a world wide banking collapse and now Brexit . I am a card carrying  Labour voter and I will not be voting as I just can't put my cross next to a Tory candidate. But I can tell you this NOW is not Labour time as this lefties infiltrated party is about to collapse into oblivion.

[not on facebook]

I think Susan will take them two with one arm tied behind her back

[Mr1Croft]

I like the Labour manifesto, those industries should never have been nationalised in the first place. I value the NHS, the tories seem hell bent on destroying it. I will vote for the policies rather than the person

You can put anything you want on a manifesto, particularly when you know you haven't a prayer of implementing it as Labour under Corbyn are just a talking shop of leftist ideals of a distant past .
I worked through Labours lefties manifesto of the past and creating employment has never been their forte . Strikes and power cuts were the order of the day .
We are reasonably rich country on the edge of a major shift in its direction , but it's always been the Tories who have attracted the jobs and steered this country to Low interest rate of 0.25% compare this to 15-17% of the 70s with high-per inflation in double figures and a 3 day week . It will not take long when Brexit kicks with Labour to go back to the days of no work no food no future for the many . Corbyn' s Monemtum cronies will destroy our ability to grow by scaring away investors with the crazy ideas of taxing everything and everyone and loose vital manufacturing jobs . The country has to be pragmatic and look beyond this day and plan carefully through this minefield of Brexit .

In 1945 the National Debt was over 200% of GDP, today it is around 40%.

The Attlee Government didn't impose austerity and cut back on public expenditure. Instead they invested in infrastructure, the manufacturing industry and created the Welfare state and the National Health Service.

In 7 years the Tories have continued to borrow at higher levels every year and whilst the deficit isn't going up it isn't coming down by much either.

We keep getting told we have a strong economy but the cost of that has been rising use of food banks (from 46,000 a year to over a million a year), homelessness doubling (when the budget for councils to deal with homeslessness was halved co-incidentally), the NHS is in crisis, (overworked and underpaid nurses have just agreed to ballot for a strike over pay), cuts to Education, cuts to disability allowance, cuts to tax credits and whilst employment has risen it still remains terribly low for 19-24 year olds, (who on average have more debt than assets) and zero hour contracts obscuring the true reflection of 'employment'.

We justify cuts to tax credits, the bedroom tax and cuts to disability allowance because we need to cut back public spending, but at the same time we can cut the top rate of tax by 5% and allow MNCs to negotiate the tax they pay.

You can call Corbyn a loony left idealist but he's put forward a plan with no hidden agenda and a clear intention; he wants to close the gap of inequality. This election represents probably the greatest chance to not just change the government but our entire democratic structure. As someone who voted for the Conservatives in the last 2 elections and consider myself Centre-right I actually believe in Corbyn. I'm fairly confident he will deliver a shock and a victory on the 8th June.

[not on facebook]

I sat and watched what corbyn said today and he had me nodding my head through his speech .

But then the tv zoomed into  Diane abbott and then I pictured all the other loons and nut jobs within the ranks of Labour Party.

Then it went to questions from the Labour supporters and the first chap up was what I was exactly fearing .

[drfchound]

Corbin is picking his venues very well too.
What better place to visit than a University when announcing banning tuition fees.
No wonder they were cheering him.

[Filo]

Corbin is picking his venues very well too.
What better place to visit than a University when announcing banning tuition fees.
No wonder they were cheering him.

Yes a bit like May visiting the working class North East and then bussing in Tory activists to cheer her, all for the BBC Cameras, no locals were allowed anywhere near!

[drfchound]

Corbin is picking his venues very well too.
What better place to visit than a University when announcing banning tuition fees.
No wonder they were cheering him.

Yes a bit like May visiting the working class North East and then bussing in Tory activists to cheer her, all for the BBC Cameras, no locals were allowed anywhere near!

But don't forget that the Torys are also pledging to help the many as well.

[Filo]

Corbin is picking his venues very well too.
What better place to visit than a University when announcing banning tuition fees.
No wonder they were cheering him.

Yes a bit like May visiting the working class North East and then bussing in Tory activists to cheer her, all for the BBC Cameras, no locals were allowed anywhere near!

But don't forget that the Torys are also pledging to help the many as well.

The rich

[drfchound]

Well while some people are believing everything that Jeremy is promising are they not listening to the PM who has promised some of the same things.
As I said earlier in the week, Jeremy can promise all he wants because he will not get the opportunity of being able to progress them.

[Mr1Croft]

Well while some people are believing everything that Jeremy is promising are they not listening to the PM who has promised some of the same things.
As I said earlier in the week, Jeremy can promise all he wants because he will not get the opportunity of being able to progress them.

Labour currently polling at 33%, a 9% rise from when the election was called, if the Tory vote share drops to 40% it will be a 15% swing and we'll see a hung parliament. Corbyn only needs a 19% swing to deliver a majority.

The Tories vote share in the local elections was 38% - 10% lower than what they were polling and in majority of seats where they have a majority.

A foregone conclusion this election is not.

[drfchound]

We shall see, as we know, the polls are not too accurate are they.

[Akinfenwa]

We are reasonably rich country on the edge of a major shift in its direction , but it's always been the Tories who have attracted the jobs and steered this country to Low interest rate of 0.25% compare this to 15-17% of the 70s with high-per inflation in double figures and a 3 day week .   

Do you actually have any figures to prove this?

If so, why not choose to compare the 10-16% interest rates under the Thatcher gov't with <6% under Blair?

Attracted jobs you say? Why not mention Conservative gov'ts from 1979-1997 presiding over the UK's highest unemploment figures post war?

[albie]

There is a Full Fact check on the manifesto proposals;
Full Fact

Some might find it useful.

[wilts rover]

But don't forget that the Torys are also pledging to help the many as well.

By increasing National Insurance contributions as they wanted to in the last month's budget do you mean?

By cutting disability and widow/widowers benefits as they did last month do you mean?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-benefit-cuts-today-disability-10144250

Wages rising at 2.2%. Inflation rising at 2.7%. Is that what you mean?
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/wage-growth
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39932653

The wealth of the richest 5% increasing by 14% - that's what you really mean isn't it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39830087

and I nearly forgot the massive business rate rise that will affect many small businesses
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39000471

The many can help the few get richer. Go on you vote for them if thats your philosophy.

[wilts rover]

I think Susan will take them two with one arm tied behind her back

You are probably right there - she scares me stiff with what she posts on here so I definatley dont ever want to meet her!

[Susan Abbott]

We are reasonably rich country on the edge of a major shift in its direction , but it's always been the Tories who have attracted the jobs and steered this country to Low interest rate of 0.25% compare this to 15-17% of the 70s with high-per inflation in double figures and a 3 day week .   

Do you actually have any figures to prove this?

If so, why not choose to compare the 10-16% interest rates under the Thatcher gov't with <6% under Blair?

Attracted jobs you say? Why not mention Conservative gov'ts from 1979-1997 presiding over the UK's highest unemploment figures post war?

Yes I was there and I was getting a pay rise every week due the currency being devalued and to compensate everyone just to help maintain their living standards and we were on less than a £ an hour or £40 a week for  a skilled person . Labour are spend today pay for it next week . Corbyn is poison and he was around even then the parasite. The price of Bread and Milk was set by the government because of import duties . Believe me when I tell you Tories ruthless bas**rds but the Labour are just thick bas**rds who can't agree even with themselves .