Nice pick up for the Govt

[selby]

The tax avoidance scheme used by footballers such as Linaker,Rooney,Beckham,and entertainment superstars such as Ant & Deck have lost their case in the courts.
     They owe the rest of us £700 million, thanks lads makes the pay as you earn look silly,but hey ho easy come easy go.

[ballysbackin]

Goooddddeeeee. BUT I bet they appeal

[wilts rover]

Clearly they lost because they aren't rich enough
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rich-people-tax-dodge-uk-economists-panama-papers-swiss-leaks-offshore-a7767391.html

[BobG]

That was quite a blunder by those Panamanian lawyers wasn't it Wilts?! I read a while back that there's decades of investigation set off by what they ballsed up. I bet they're not very popular any more... But money begets money even so. Plenty of plutocrats these days employ their own 'in house' teams of lawyers, investment advisers, fixers and professional contact makers. I'm a bloke from a pit village called Donny. I can use the system, legally, to make money; to minimise tax. If I can do it, and I ain't rich, just imagine what the better off can do, never mind the stinking rich. It's an obscenity.

BobG

[wilts rover]

It looks even worse Bob if you put it together with wealth generation - 85 people having as much wealth as half the world's population (3.5 billion people) put together. 5 families in the UK has as much wealth as the poorest 20% of us (12 million people).

And this wealth leads to more wealth. Since the 1990s, the incomes of the top 0.1% have grown by £461 a week or £24,000 a year. By contrast, the bottom 90% have seen a real terms increase of only £2.82 a week or £147 a year.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/17/oxfam-report-scale-britain-growing-financial-inequality

[drfchound]

Is there a single one of us on VSC who haven't paid tax on some money they have received that they should have done?

[Glyn_Wigley]

All my jobs have been PAYE.

[drfchound]

A politians answer,that doesn't answer the question.

[Geoff Blakesley]

Me ! Is that why you hide behind a keyboard name like so many on this site !!

[Bentley Bullet]

I suspect many of us avoid paying tax through ISAS and pension funds.

[drfchound]

Calm down Geoff, I have a user name, that is all.
Did I actually say I had not paid tax on something I should have done?
I guess you don't have an ISA then Geoff.

[wilts rover]

Is there a single one of us on VSC who haven't paid tax on some money they have received that they should have done?

I have always paid all the tax on all the money I should have done. When I had my own business I had an accountant whose job it was to reduce the tax I needed to pay - but I always paid the tax I owed. If you didn't you are a criminal and that's your lookout.

There is a big difference to reducing your tax burden legally using approved schemes - and tax avoidance and evasion. As we discussed not so long ago.

[drfchound]

  Wilts, why are you so quick to go on the offensive.
I haven't said anything about me not paying my dues, as I said a while ago.
Also as you should know, avoidance is legal, evasion isn't.

[wilts rover]

I suspect many of us avoid paying tax through ISAS and pension funds.

Which is excellent and supported by the government because you are creating wealth in other ways by saving and giving banks money to invest. In tax terms this isn't tax avoidance - its called tax planning/tax mitigation.

Tax avoidance is using schemes which have been set up for a different purpose to avoid tax. Tax evasion is just that.

http://www.nouse.co.uk/2013/01/22/what-is-the-difference-between-tax-evasion-and-tax-avoidance/

[wilts rover]

Wilts, why are you so quick to go on the offensive.
I haven't said anything about me not paying my dues, as I said a while ago.
Also as you should know, avoidance is legal, evasion isn't.

Sorry hound, please don't take my posts personally - I always like to quote posts I am reply too if I am replying to a point in them. The 'you' in there is a general 'you' and not yourself (unless you know something which I suggest you then keep to yourself!)

[Glyn_Wigley]

A politians answer,that doesn't answer the question.

In that case, no. Because all my jobs have been PAYE. What else did you think it meant?

[Bentley Bullet]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't reducing your tax burden legally by using approved schemes tax avoidance? Tax avoidance is completely legal, whereas tax evasion isn't!

I stopped smoking ten years ago because among other things I was sick of the tax I was paying on Fags. Now, it was the government who put that tax on them in order to (allegedly) deter people from buying them. Now their plan worked on me, so I avoided paying tax on them by packing them in.

Should I have carried on smoking for the good of my country?

[wilts rover]

No that's tax mitigation Bentley. Tax avoidance is using a scheme that has been set up for something else just to avoid paying tax - have a read of that link it explains it.

[Bentley Bullet]

I've read the link Wilts, and tax avoidance isn't illegal. It is indeed what surely all of us do in the form of ISAS and pensions, for instance, to increase our wealth.

[ballysbackin]

Can I just add something. Firstly I have a user name, but I might as well use my real name because loads of people on here know my full name, that is one thing but may I just mention a discussion I had with the inland revenue about five years ago bearing in mind I had to retire and put on scrap heap when I was just 51 (But would have packed in due to my own health issues and my wife's terminal illness)

I checked up when out of the blue I got a demand for £243 back tax that I had owed them for the year before (When I was receiving my Police Pension and Incapacity Benefit - no work involved but anyway )I asked for an explanation I was not arguing. I was told by the man  that this applies ""IT IS UP TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL TO CHECK AND KNOW IF THEY ARE PAYING THE CORRECT AMOUNT OF INLAND REVENUE - BASICALLY TAX. I WAS THEN TOLD THAT I SHOULD HAVE MADE CONTACT IF I BELIEVED OR THOUGHT I WAS NOT PAYING ENOUGH" This is perfectly true, so I asked him if I pulled him up in his car whilst in the Police and reported him for an offence and stipulated the exact Section and Act he had contravened would he believe me and would he accept without checking what I said was correct?. He replied "Yes, because you know as you are a Policeman and he would not question - even if it had been wrong" So I replied "Well then I believed that what you people had told me I had to pay initially as tax because YOU PEOPLE ARE THE INLAND REVENUE AND IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO TRY AND WORK ALL THE INS AND OUTS OF THE ACCOUNT OUT. He laughed and told me I had a good point BUT it was still my fault because I did not check I was paying enough.
Avoidance or Evasion - it was neither.

I hope that my little story as some call them is of interest to many and I am not suggesting you all become experts in the Inland Revenue. But as far as they are concerned it is up to the individual, Apparent the Inland Revenue had not told the Police Authority who paid my Occy Pension to pay more tax . BUT IT REMAINED MY FAULT.      For those nearing retirement, just be careful and for those who are very very close to State Pension, another thing I was told is "Your State Pension is a Concession and not a Right....." You should apply for it three months before you are 65 years of age. " Trust me on that one, it does not come automatically.

[selby]

The common denominator between ourselves is that we are all small fry,the people in this scheme are all minted,but want more.
    Not only that,in the majority of cases they dont want to use the same toilet as us,but are quite willing for their droppings to end up on our doorsteps.

[selby]

The BBC in their wisdom have named Rooney,and Beckham mainly as their headline members of the scheme which had 1400+ members.
     If after a final decision is made in law and  it is still classed as Illegal,a full list of members should be published,I wonder how many work for the BBC, or are Rugby Union internationals?

[Dutch Uncle]

Reading Bally's post above, may I just add a comment or two based on 36 years of being a Dutch tax payer, and now 4 years of paying UK Tax.

The Dutch 'Belastingdienst' is far more complicated, less transparent and less forgiving than the HMRC by a long way. As in the UK the responsbility is with the individual, and woe betide any mistakes. I once received a huge bill out of the blue for 4 years earlier, totally in error on their behalf. It was my responsibility, and it took me a year and a thousand Euros to sort it out. They also think nothing of ignoring High Court rulings against them. Following a complicated class action, I am owed backtax from a High Court ruling of I think 2006. The Dutch tax authorities have simply refused to pay, and there are still ongoing legal actions getting nowhere. Finally recently they have started to offer partial (below half) payments to some people to test the water. It is succeeding from their point of view since most of the people concerned have either passed away or left the country and are willing to settle.

The Dutch tax is far higher by the way, and so public services are much better funded. I can understand the reluctance to increase the highest level of tax (45% here, and btw I think 52% in NL) because it might cause a few billionaires to move away and revenue wise might prove counter productive. However I don't see why the extemely high 150K threshhold shouldn't be reduced dramatically to 100K or even 75K, increasing that tax from 40% to 45%

[Jenny]

Oh how I love dealing with Belastingdienst.....

Bally, our tax system is based on self assessment, therefore it is the tax payers responsibility to ensure that they are paying the correct amount of tax. Where this falls down is lack of understanding and education re basic tax laws.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Oh how I love dealing with Belastingdienst.....

Bally, our tax system is based on self assessment, therefore it is the tax payers responsibility to ensure that they are paying the correct amount of tax. Where this falls down is lack of understanding and education re basic tax laws.

All of which is as a result of shoving that onus onto laypeople just to save money by reducing HMRC staff numbers.

Another result of which is when you ring them to get help to try and work things out, you will answered by someone who doesn't even work for HMRC but by someone in an outsourced call centre whose 'advice' I wouldn't trust as far as I can chuck it because they have zero experience of working with tax law. Just you try asking them to put their 'advice' in writing to you (when it becomes a legally binding 'decision') and see what happens..!

[selby]

A couple of good names for you involved in this scam
  Bob Geldof yes he who asked you for a fiver out of your pocket
  Dame Clara Furse of the Bank of England financial policy committee.
  Annie Lennox she who wants to save the world.
   Anne Robinson must be saving up for another face lift

[drfchound]

Whichever way you wrap this up, the scheme they are involved in is not outside of the law.
If it was they would all be risking a jail sentence wouldn't they.
If the law is changed then they will have to find another way of banking.

[BobG]

It's been the case, Bally, ever since I started paying tax, that I am personally responsible for the accuracy of the amount I pay. That applies whether it's me that fills the forms in and works out the tax due, my PAYE employer or my accountant. It's a great system from the Revenue's point of view. On the one hand they can come like sharks in the night, impose their exorbitant interest rates and demand you pay more tax. On the other, if they owe you money, they have the basis of an argument that says you shouldn't have paid it in the first place and we're sorry but it's timed out Sir. They don't do that last very often, but they could.

I have an accountant. A good accountant. He is extremely helpful. He knows the tax rules. People like you and me haven't got a cat in hells chance of understanding them. Along with social security schemes, they are pretty much the most complicated set of paperwork ordinary human beings will ever encounter. But you are still personally responsible, accountable and liable.....

BobG

[ballysbackin]

You are certainly right Bob, I have not got a clue...

[Bentley Bullet]

It's funny really, nay hilarious, how the leading tax expert on this forum refuses to exploit his knowledge to his own financial advantage. If he believed in medals he should, without a doubt receive one.