Brexit Negotiations

[Boomstick]

Boomstick

Pointless, I know, since you don’t engage with facts, but there are three really big established facts that HAVE happened as predicted after the vote.

1) The Pound dropped dramatically in value.
2) Inflation went up as a result.
3) GDP growth shrank, while the rest of the world was enjoying a boom.

2) means that we’ve all got poorer because prices have been rising faster than wages.

3) Means that we’ve missed out on a surge of wealth creation. As a result, we’re about £1000 per person poorer than we would have been if we’d seen the economic performance that France, Germany, USA, Holland, Australia etc have done since 2016.   


This aren’t opinions. Dipshit. They are established facts.

id prefer if we continued this in person, and see if you call me dipshit to my face.
I stated my opinion, I'm allowed it.

I wasn't referring to what's gone on before, only what the future holds.

I suggest you calm down and wind your neck in.

[Glyn_Wigley]

but it's all ifs and buts with you remoaners.
there are no solid facts of what may or may not happen.

It's automatically the worse case economic scenario, to argue your ideology.

I prefer to embrace it, ITS HAPPENING.
the sooner remoaners realise this and come on board, we will all benefit

moaning and throwing your toys out of the pram achieves nothing, and helps no one, it just makes it harder than it should be.

let's look forward and forge a new pathway without the ball and chain of the eu around out necks.

onwards and upwards, rule Britannia.

Well then, let's hear all of your solid facts about how much better off we're going to be. Economically.

I have none, just like you have no facts about us being worse.
this whole thread is just remoaners whinging.

all im saying is that it's happening, and the sooner everyone in on board, the sooner we all benefit.

Wrong. I do have facts about how importers and exporters are going to be worse off. I've already given them plenty of times and I'm not going to go through them yet again just to spoonfeed yet another disbeliever so you'll just have to find them for yourself.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Boomstick

Pointless, I know, since you don’t engage with facts, but there are three really big established facts that HAVE happened as predicted after the vote.

1) The Pound dropped dramatically in value.
2) Inflation went up as a result.
3) GDP growth shrank, while the rest of the world was enjoying a boom.

2) means that we’ve all got poorer because prices have been rising faster than wages.

3) Means that we’ve missed out on a surge of wealth creation. As a result, we’re about £1000 per person poorer than we would have been if we’d seen the economic performance that France, Germany, USA, Holland, Australia etc have done since 2016.   


This aren’t opinions. Dipshit. They are established facts.

id prefer if we continued this in person, and see if you call me dipshit to my face.
I stated my opinion, I'm allowed it.

I wasn't referring to what's gone on before, only what the future holds.

I suggest you calm down and wind your neck in.

It's the same future as from the second the referendum result was known isn't it? Or are the bad things that have already happened because of the result just to be swept under the carpet as inconvenient facts?

[MachoMadness]

Boomstick

Pointless, I know, since you don’t engage with facts, but there are three really big established facts that HAVE happened as predicted after the vote.

1) The Pound dropped dramatically in value.
2) Inflation went up as a result.
3) GDP growth shrank, while the rest of the world was enjoying a boom.

2) means that we’ve all got poorer because prices have been rising faster than wages.

3) Means that we’ve missed out on a surge of wealth creation. As a result, we’re about £1000 per person poorer than we would have been if we’d seen the economic performance that France, Germany, USA, Holland, Australia etc have done since 2016.   


This aren’t opinions. Dipshit. They are established facts.

id prefer if we continued this in person, and see if you call me dipshit to my face.
I stated my opinion, I'm allowed it.

I wasn't referring to what's gone on before, only what the future holds.

I suggest you calm down and wind your neck in.

Tell you what Boomstick. I've got a petrol car. On my way home today, I might stop off and put diesel in it. I know you're not supposed to according to these so-called experts, and all the facts I've learned up until now tell me it'll knacker my car, and most of the risks are obvious. But I'll do it anyway, because despite what's gone on before, you never know what the future holds. Maybe diesel will help my car run better.

This is your argument. "f**k the facts, I know better." And then you wonder why people end up condescending to you.

[Filo]

Oh and Filo for starting this 66 page thread.......

Not dure I've enjoyed much press and media coverage 😂😂😂😂

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick

A couple of weeks ago, I suggested that you stop using stupid insults in this discussion. You ignored that suggestion and carried on. You started the insults and carried on using them.

Calling you “Dipshit” was very deliberately making a point. It’s frustrating isn’t it? Its insulting and it doesn’t help the discussion. You see?

Right. Shall we agree to discuss this civilly, cut out the stupid infantile insults and engage with facts instead?

It seems your take now is “Doesn’t matter if people made predictions and those predictions came true. I still don’t believe that their analysis is correct.” Great. So give us an argument beyond your belief as to why they are wrong and you are right.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Ah, but Billy, you should forget about all of his previous insults as they are in the past, even though he used them after the thread started. And you're no expert so you have no idea about whether he's going to insult you again in the future!

[Boomstick]

Boomstick

A couple of weeks ago, I suggested that you stop using stupid insults in this discussion. You ignored that suggestion and carried on. You started the insults and carried on using them.

Calling you “Dipshit” was very deliberately making a point. It’s frustrating isn’t it? Its insulting and it doesn’t help the discussion. You see?

Right. Shall we agree to discuss this civilly, cut out the stupid infantile insults and engage with facts instead?

It seems your take now is “Doesn’t matter if people made predictions and those predictions came true. I still don’t believe that their analysis is correct.” Great. So give us an argument beyond your belief as to why they are wrong and you are right.

your nothing but a BULLY that refuses to accept someone else has an opinion.

I'm refusing to stoop to your level, your a non - entity.
you may have a small following on this poxy off topic Donny rovers  forum, but that's it.

I'm off to engage with the real world, and not going to waste a second more of my time on you.

enjoy peddling your tripe to a handful of people on here, I'm off to fry bigger fish.

[DonnyOsmond]

 

[MachoMadness]

 

[RedJ]

Boomstick

A couple of weeks ago, I suggested that you stop using stupid insults in this discussion. You ignored that suggestion and carried on. You started the insults and carried on using them.

Calling you “Dipshit” was very deliberately making a point. It’s frustrating isn’t it? Its insulting and it doesn’t help the discussion. You see?

Right. Shall we agree to discuss this civilly, cut out the stupid infantile insults and engage with facts instead?

It seems your take now is “Doesn’t matter if people made predictions and those predictions came true. I still don’t believe that their analysis is correct.” Great. So give us an argument beyond your belief as to why they are wrong and you are right.

your nothing but a BULLY that refuses to accept someone else has an opinion.

I'm refusing to stoop to your level, your a non - entity.
you may have a small following on this poxy off topic Donny rovers  forum, but that's it.

I'm off to engage with the real world, and not going to waste a second more of my time on you.

enjoy peddling your tripe to a handful of people on here, I'm off to fry bigger fish.

It's not about having an opinion. It's about ignoring everything that is contrary to your opinion - and in your case, nigh on everything IS contrary to your opinion, yet you just close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalalalalalalala I am not listening to you.

[Bentley Bullet]

I see the Hyenas have been out in force again! Well done lads, that's another one gone leaving you all to wallow in the luxury of unopposed opinion.

[MachoMadness]

I see the Hyenas have been out in force again! Well done lads, that's another one gone leaving you all to wallow in the luxury of unopposed opinion.

Yep, it's definitely us bloody remoaners that want an unopposed opinion when someone else runs off crying because people disagree with him.

[Bentley Bullet]

It must give a real confidence boost for remoaners to be in the majority on this epic thread. Where else could a handful of people claim such a majority? Maybe the answer is their adversaries can't be arsed, apart from a few who butt in on the love-in every now and again.

Well, either that or they prefer a more even contest in the real world.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right.

Apologies from me about descending to insults. That’s stupid and childish and I shouldn’t have done it.

Regarding opinions, it’s true that I don’t give value to many lay people’s opinions on this. Including my own, because it’s worthless. It’s too complex an issue to rely on opinions. Which is why I look at the worked out predictions of people whose job it is to look at these things. That’s different from an opinion.

If I’ve come across as a bully then I apologise for that too. That’s not the intention. I do get passionate on this because it’s the most important decision we’ll take in my lifetime. And as such, EVERYONE should be arguing and discussing this to make sure we get it right.

 I want this country to be a success and all the indications are that we’re staring down the barrel of a disaster. No-one who studies Brexit seriously disputes that. So yeah, I argue hard. That’s what we should do. If there are strong arguments on the other side, I’ll listen to them. But I haven’t heard any in 2 years. Just vague assurances that it’ll be alright, compared to sober and detailed predictions of why it will not be alright. 

But none of that justifies bullying. We need to be grown up enough to discuss this civilly and if I haven’t done, that’s a mistake.

[Boomstick]

Right.

Apologies from me about descending to insults. That’s stupid and childish and I shouldn’t have done it.

Regarding opinions, it’s true that I don’t give value to many lay people’s opinions on this. Including my own, because it’s worthless. It’s too complex an issue to rely on opinions. Which is why I look at the worked out predictions of people whose job it is to look at these things. That’s different from an opinion.

If I’ve come across as a bully then I apologise for that too. That’s not the intention. I do get passionate on this because it’s the most important decision we’ll take in my lifetime. And as such, EVERYONE should be arguing and discussing this to make sure we get it right.

 I want this country to be a success and all the indications are that we’re staring down the barrel of a disaster. No-one who studies Brexit seriously disputes that. So yeah, I argue hard. That’s what we should do. If there are strong arguments on the other side, I’ll listen to them. But I haven’t heard any in 2 years. Just vague assurances that it’ll be alright, compared to sober and detailed predictions of why it will not be alright. 

But none of that justifies bullying. We need to be grown up enough to discuss this civilly and if I haven’t done, that’s a mistake.

fair enough bst.
appreciate that, and admire your integrity for it.

[The Red Baron]

Monsieur Non, the no-deal Brexiteers' greatest ally.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/michel-barniers-pointed-questions-point-to-no-deal/

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

John Pienaar hit the nail on the head on R4 this afternoon.

He said it’s becoming clearer that the U.K. doesn’t seem to understand the underlying EU position. It’s that the EU is an organisation. With rules. What the U.K. is assuming is that the rules can and will be bent to accommodate our requirements. But doing that would undermine the purpose of the rules for everyone else.

What we’re doing is similar to someone leaving a golf club, but wanting to still have the right to play, and to use the club house without adhering to the dress code.

Why should that be accommodated? What does the EU gain from that?

PS. I still think the best analogy was the French diplomat who said that Britain’s approach to the Brexit negotiations was like a man who wanted to attend a wife-swapping party but not bring his wife along.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Monsieur Non, the no-deal Brexiteers' greatest ally.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/michel-barniers-pointed-questions-point-to-no-deal/

PPS. There won’t be a no-deal Brexit. There is zero chance of that getting through Parliament. Which makes May’s negotiating position impossible.

She’s only just got Parliamentary support for the Chequers proposal.

But the EU won’t accept that, and not should they. They want more movement from us.

But if she moves towards the EU position, she’ll lose the support of the Brexit wing of the Tory party.

So the logical approach to negotiating would be to face the EU down by threatening a no deal scenario which would effectively mean us jumping off a cliff and taking the EU with us.

That should get the EU to go easier on us.

Except Parliament would never support a no deal scenario. And of course they shouldn’t. Because it would be an unmitigated f**king catastrophe.

So. In a nutshell, May is f**ked.

A statesman, in this position, would do what is best for the country. Face up to the fact that we are in a horrendously dangerous position. Admit that you have utterly f**ked things up. Call a second referendum. A binding one. With two possibilities. No deal Brexit or call the whole thing off and remain. And promise to resign before the referendum. And have a General Election in the same day.

Get some f**king clarity about how we get out of this impending disaster.

But May’s not a historic statesman. She’s a county councillor who Rose way beyond her level of competence. And she might yet bring us all down in her insistence of clinging onto power.

[albie]

May will call a second referendum...but not just yet.

A second vote gives her a get out of jail card when the negotiations do not offer a hard brexit.

The Rees Smuggers will have the whip hand unless May looks for wider endorsement for the outcome. If a second ref gives a no vote the carpet is pulled out from under the Rees Smuggers. If it shows another yes then its not her fault for what happens next.

The Tories could give her the bums rush.... but risk a general election from a very weak position.

All down to tactics in this poker game.

[Glyn_Wigley]

There'll never be a Referendum and a General Election on the same day, because you'd have people campaigning against their party line on the Referendum but campaigning for their party for the General Election at the same, it'd be a complete mess.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There’s the question that’s coming over the hill very quickly Glyn. Is Party affiliation more important than Brexit?

If you’re a Europhile Labour supporter, it’s a particularly hard question. Corbyn’s EU policy is a shambles that would collapse at the first step. He says he wants a deal that gets us out of the SM, out of THE CU but part of A CU. And he wants the outcome to be no worse than the current deal.

Baloney. That’s more wishful thinking than May.

So that approach simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Which means that a Labour Govt would be no better able to cut a sensible deal with the EU than a Tory Govt.

So what do you do as a Labour supporting Europhile? Do you support the party or the principle?

[The Red Baron]

May will call a second referendum...but not just yet.

A second vote gives her a get out of jail card when the negotiations do not offer a hard brexit.

The Rees Smuggers will have the whip hand unless May looks for wider endorsement for the outcome. If a second ref gives a no vote the carpet is pulled out from under the Rees Smuggers. If it shows another yes then its not her fault for what happens next.

The Tories could give her the bums rush.... but risk a general election from a very weak position.

All down to tactics in this poker game.

I agree with you that the second referendum is the trump card, but I doubt May will be the one to play it. Once Barnier has shredded the Chequers Plan she'll be a busted flush and neither wing of the Tory party will be willing to get behind her any more.

Both the EU and the UK Government will play up the possibility / likelihood of No Deal over the coming months. This will make people and businesses on both sides of the Channel very nervous and calls for the second referendum will grow. One area where the EU appears willing to accommodate the UK is over a stay in Article 50, which would be needed now for a second referendum to be held. But it's pretty clear if there is a second referendum then there is no need for more than two options on the ballot paper. It's No Deal or Remain.

RIP Soft Brexit.

[SydneyRover]

There’s the question that’s coming over the hill very quickly Glyn. Is Party affiliation more important than Brexit?

If you’re a Europhile Labour supporter, it’s a particularly hard question. Corbyn’s EU policy is a shambles that would collapse at the first step. He says he wants a deal that gets us out of the SM, out of THE CU but part of A CU. And he wants the outcome to be no worse than the current deal.

Baloney. That’s more wishful thinking than May.

So that approach simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Which means that a Labour Govt would be no better able to cut a sensible deal with the EU than a Tory Govt.

So what do you do as a Labour supporting Europhile? Do you support the party or the principle?

Its a very important point thats been made here and could possibly be resolved if labour EU supporters have a white knight lurking to challenge Corbyn, because if they do the stay/leave question could all be resolved in a flash. Scenario: Corbyn pretender resolves to stay in EU gets huge support across labour and big parts of non-labour, challenges Corbyn and wins leadership, support for any sort of Brexit collapses, May resigns from parliament a general election is called and won by Labour on back of stay campaign, Britain remains in EU, Ireland is reunited and Doncaster promoted to the Premier League.

Maybe not quite as simple as that but I think a change of leadership in the labour camp would be more sustainable than a change in the conservative camp, as what could a May successor offer an even bigger Brexit?, a new improved Brexit, Brexit with 25% free?.

[Bentley Bullet]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!


 

[SydneyRover]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!


 

Nervous laugh?.

[Bentley Bullet]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!


 

Nervous laugh?.

Well, yes. Nervous in the sense that I nearly shat me'sen laughing. How can Doncaster get promoted to the Premier League with such a policy of austerity?

[SydneyRover]

Brexit: EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier takes apart Theresa May’s Chequers white paper plan.

Well what a surprise, noone saw that coming! well noone in this government.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-uk-chequers-white-paper-michel-barnier-theresa-may-a8456416.html

[selby]

  Resentment will build against such as Barnier and the EU, who will be portrayed in the media as wanting to punish the British People for voting out in the first place, and that if we stay in we  will just be a side show from now on, with France and Germany calling the shots.
 People will become more entrenched, and I do not think the remainers hope of another vote ( which I think we will not have ) will not be the open and shut case the remainers think it will be.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

You’re right about the press. The Express was at it again yesterday with an appalling front page.

Which is why there should be a million discussions like this all over the country. You can not rely on Murdoch, Dacre and Desmond to inform you honestly. They are the most devious, deceitful bas**rds in the country. So, if you truly care about where the UK is going, you need to have these vigorous debates and let the truth emerge from there.