Every day brings new evidence that Brexit was a fraud, reverse it now.

[SydneyRover]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/14/how-400-russia-run-fake-accounts-posted-bogus-brexit-tweets

[wing commander]

  And based on a newspaper report from a remain rag, we just decide to forget the constitution of this country and say sod it we are staying???...Why not send in the Military like in Zimbabwe and go the whole hogg.

[Hounslowrover]

  And based on a newspaper report from a remain rag, we just decide to forget the constitution of this country and say sod it we are staying???...Why not send in the Military like in Zimbabwe and go the whole hogg.

Hasn't May just given a speech about Russian interference, and isn't she a leaver, so perhaps some truth in it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co, you depress me.

You're an intelligent man and a successful businessman.

I'd have thought you'd have found that report horrifying. That report is setting out established facts about Russia's actions. The British and US secret services have also established that both of our democracies are being systematically attacked by Russian infiltrators.

I'm astonished that you don't find that report deeply worrying. I'm even more astonished that you simply ignore it because it's in a "Remainer Rag". Is that where we are now?

[SydneyRover]

So there are still those that would allow a narrow points decision even though the Russians have had a heavy hand in it? That there have been blatant lies and exaggerations, that the UK will suffer for decades even permanently, it's unbelievable.

[Filo]

I'm not sure which of these post are genuine and which are from Russian Bots, the frequency of some posters suggest the Russians have infiltrated us! 😀

[wing commander]

Wing Co, you depress me.

You're an intelligent man and a successful businessman.

I'd have thought you'd have found that report horrifying. That report is setting out established facts about Russia's actions. The British and US secret services have also established that both of our democracies are being systematically attacked by Russian infiltrators.

I'm astonished that you don't find that report deeply worrying. I'm even more astonished that you simply ignore it because it's in a "Remainer Rag". Is that where we are now?

Yes fair enough Billy,I was responding to the initial demand that we scrap it now..Thing is I don't use twitter so wouldn't know how much difference those fake accounts made.

They also seemed to focus on immigration which had absolutely nothing to do with my belief that we need to leave the EU.Mine was purely from economic reasons and what I personally believe would be the long term benefit to us based on what I see and here from people based in uk manufacturing,or whats left of it which has been squeezed and decimated trying to compete with countries within the EU who pay no wages,have far less regulations and receive subsidies to allow them to provide a even cheaper product than what they can afford to make...We actually pay Countries to take our own work and jobs off us..
   Of course different industries have different views ie the financial industry which needs the EU framework..

   Would it shock you if fake twitter accounts were found to from remain groups or pro Europe groups doing the same thing in reverse,no it probably wouldn't.

[SydneyRover]

Wing Co, you depress me.

You're an intelligent man and a successful businessman.

I'd have thought you'd have found that report horrifying. That report is setting out established facts about Russia's actions. The British and US secret services have also established that both of our democracies are being systematically attacked by Russian infiltrators.

I'm astonished that you don't find that report deeply worrying. I'm even more astonished that you simply ignore it because it's in a "Remainer Rag". Is that where we are now?

Yes fair enough Billy,I was responding to the initial demand that we scrap it now..Thing is I don't use twitter so wouldn't know how much difference those fake accounts made.

They also seemed to focus on immigration which had absolutely nothing to do with my belief that we need to leave the EU.Mine was purely from economic reasons and what I personally believe would be the long term benefit to us based on what I see and here from people based in uk manufacturing,or whats left of it which has been squeezed and decimated trying to compete with countries within the EU who pay no wages,have far less regulations and receive subsidies to allow them to provide a even cheaper product than what they can afford to make...We actually pay Countries to take our own work and jobs off us..
   Of course different industries have different views ie the financial industry which needs the EU framework..

   Would it shock you if fake twitter accounts were found to from remain groups or pro Europe groups doing the same thing in reverse,no it probably wouldn't.

That the Russians are prepared to spend big money on stirring up racial hatred in the UK to assist in the break up in Europe should tell you that at least they think it's effective. On economic grounds which countries are you thinking of trading with that would give us an economic advantage other than those on our doorstep, China, Laos, Vietnam, India any in South or Central America? With Trump in the White House they are not going to do us any favours.

[Donnywolf]

I'm not sure which of these post are genuine and which are from Russian Bots, the frequency of some posters suggest the Russians have infiltrated us! 😀

Perfect cover for them as well .... just finish each post with COYReds

[SydneyRover]

I'm not sure which of these post are genuine and which are from Russian Bots, the frequency of some posters suggest the Russians have infiltrated us! 😀

Perfect cover for them as well .... just finish each post with COYReds

They are quite easy to pick as they're the ones that want Brexit.

[wing commander]

  Like I said, personally immigration didn't figure for me but it would be interesting to know what effect those accounts actually had and how many people read or were influenced by them..

  Europe will still trade with us but I'm going to give you a couple of examples of why the EU and it's regulations hurt us in manufacturing..
          A couple of years ago China saw a decrease in it's growth.The first thing they did was put a high percentage levy on any Steel imported into their country to keep production internally, meaning UK steel mills were no longer competitive on exports..We couldn't put pressure on there imports to us by returning a levy because EU regulations on freedom of trade forbids it..Production in China went up allowing them to import it back to us cheaper than we can make it..Steel mills closed
     I know of a company who used to make lifting assembly's for most of Europes major assembly manufacturers..Then one day over in Romania a company that mainly dealt internally doing a similar thing received a 15million grant from there own Government to improve the road infrastructure to there factory..This grant was paid for by a EU Development grant...Within months the UK company had lost all it's work because the Romanians were selling the product cheaper than the materials could be bought for in this country,never mind the fact that working conditions and wages differ massively over there..Nobody here would do it,they would be up in arms....The end result,thousands of extra jobs were created in Romania while the uk company went into administration and closed along with everybody's jobs...The irony is that as far as anyone knows,not a single traffic cone was ever put out and the uk basically paid a percentage of the grant that closed it's own business as the money was used to offset production cost....
    That 2,i could give you 52 and that's just in my own experience of being in business and trying to trade in a system that is against you in every turn..

    Like I said different sectors, different opinions I'm sure if you work in the financial sector or a big company with bases all over Europe you could give me reasons to contra that...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co

For me, it's not a tribal thing. And it goes WAY beyond Brexit.

We're at a cross roads at the moment. Do we really want to have an informed, evidence-based democracy? Or are we happy to have one where evidence is thrown out the window and we turn a blind eye to the scale of propaganda that Russia is engaged in.

And I'm not interested in which side it comes from. I've given my two pennorth on how much I hate Corbyn's two-faced approach to Brexit and NATO. But the fact is that the evidence is that black ops from overseas in the Brexit campaign was overwhelmingly aimed at supporting Leave. And it's being wilfully blind not to accept that this sort of stuff has consequences on the results of close elections.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah, I can see that there are issues in your sector. But the economic effect of Brexit on the country as a whole is going to be a Very Bad Thing. There's no difference of opinion among economists on this, other than one or two very ideologically motivated ones (like Patrick Mumford who popped up again this week saying how great Brexit would be. He's the one who convinced That her to cut spending and put up interest rates in the depths of a recession in 1981, which turned a bad recession into the worst one since 1930. After a year of economic carnage with unemployment trebling, Minford was pushed aside and sanity returned, but you can't keep an idiot down, and here he is again telling us what to do...)

[wing commander]

Wing Co

For me, it's not a tribal thing. And it goes WAY beyond Brexit.

We're at a cross roads at the moment. Do we really want to have an informed, evidence-based democracy? Or are we happy to have one where evidence is thrown out the window and we turn a blind eye to the scale of propaganda that Russia is engaged in.

And I'm not interested in which side it comes from. I've given my two pennorth on how much I hate Corbyn's two-faced approach to Brexit and NATO. But the fact is that the evidence is that black ops from overseas in the Brexit campaign was overwhelmingly aimed at supporting Leave. And it's being wilfully blind not to accept that this sort of stuff has consequences on the results of close elections.

    I have no arguments with that Billy..It's not just the Russians though,looking back and analysing the campaign run by everyone,what chance did the average punter who works 40hrs per week with a mortgage and 2.4 children have of coming to a informed decision wether it was stay or go based on the information put in front of him...That's why immigration was made the leader of discussion,it was the easy argument for joe public to get behind...
   It will get to the stage,in fact it already is that the system is so broke nobody can really be sure what they are voting for...

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm not sure which of these post are genuine and which are from Russian Bots, the frequency of some posters suggest the Russians have infiltrated us! 😀

Looking at what they tweeted it makes me think that Oslo is really from Moscow..! 

[wing commander]

Yeah, I can see that there are issues in your sector. But the economic effect of Brexit on the country as a whole is going to be a Very Bad Thing. There's no difference of opinion among economists on this, other than one or two very ideologically motivated ones (like Patrick Mumford who popped up again this week saying how great Brexit would be. He's the one who convinced That her to cut spending and put up interest rates in the depths of a recession in 1981, which turned a bad recession into the worst one since 1930. After a year of economic carnage with unemployment trebling, Minford was pushed aside and sanity returned, but you can't keep an idiot down, and here he is again telling us what to do...)

   The one thing I would say about that is that maybe the headline figure initially on the Economy will be effected but its my belief that the gap between the richer and poorer industries in this country will close..Finance will be less profitable.Manufacturing will be better off and that long term we will be much the better for it..
   The average guy doesn't get paid 500,000 a year working for a hedge fund in the city earning big bonus on making millions extra for already very rich men..He works in Factory's and it those who will eventually be better off...
   Of course that's just my opinion.i know a lot disagree and that's what democracy is but I would rather trust my own experiences and gut feelings on this issue rather than a bunch of politicians with ulterior motives telling me what they want me to hear....

[Filo]

  Like I said, personally immigration didn't figure for me but it would be interesting to know what effect those accounts actually had and how many people read or were influenced by them..

  Europe will still trade with us but I'm going to give you a couple of examples of why the EU and it's regulations hurt us in manufacturing..
          A couple of years ago China saw a decrease in it's growth.The first thing they did was put a high percentage levy on any Steel imported into their country to keep production internally, meaning UK steel mills were no longer competitive on exports..We couldn't put pressure on there imports to us by returning a levy because EU regulations on freedom of trade forbids it..Production in China went up allowing them to import it back to us cheaper than we can make it..Steel mills closed
     I know of a company who used to make lifting assembly's for most of Europes major assembly manufacturers..Then one day over in Romania a company that mainly dealt internally doing a similar thing received a 15million grant from there own Government to improve the road infrastructure to there factory..This grant was paid for by a EU Development grant...Within months the UK company had lost all it's work because the Romanians were selling the product cheaper than the materials could be bought for in this country,never mind the fact that working conditions and wages differ massively over there..Nobody here would do it,they would be up in arms....The end result,thousands of extra jobs were created in Romania while the uk company went into administration and closed along with everybody's jobs...The irony is that as far as anyone knows,not a single traffic cone was ever put out and the uk basically paid a percentage of the grant that closed it's own business as the money was used to offset production cost....
    That 2,i could give you 52 and that's just in my own experience of being in business and trying to trade in a system that is against you in every turn..

    Like I said different sectors, different opinions I'm sure if you work in the financial sector or a big company with bases all over Europe you could give me reasons to contra that...

Wing co, I believe you're into steel fabrication. My Cousin was the fab bay manager at a fabrication company in Thorne but they were forced to close last year due tocheaper and inferior Chinese imported steel

[Muttley]

  And based on a newspaper report from a remain rag, we just decide to forget the constitution of this country and say sod it we are staying???

The UK doesn't have a constitution.

The referendum was advisory, and did not need to be acted upon if the government did not wish, but the Tories have decided to drive us all over the cliff for the sake of party unity.

Complete insanity.

[Muttley]

          A couple of years ago China saw a decrease in it's growth.The first thing they did was put a high percentage levy on any Steel imported into their country to keep production internally, meaning UK steel mills were no longer competitive on exports..We couldn't put pressure on there imports to us by returning a levy because EU regulations on freedom of trade forbids it..Production in China went up allowing them to import it back to us cheaper than we can make it..Steel mills closed
   

With all due respect, that's b*llocks.

The EC is actually extremely protectionist - I know I have worked with them on a number of anti-dumping cases that affected a local manufacturer concerning dumped imports from China, India, Ukraine, South Africa and others.

For example, have a look at this http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1669 - EC imposing duties of up to 35.9% on imports of Chinese steel.

In my experience, where the EC have failed to act against dumped imports, it is often due to the European consumers being happy with the cheap imported product and not being willing to support the European manufacturers by providing evidence of the benefits of the existence of a domestic manufacturer.

[glosterred]

  And based on a newspaper report from a remain rag, we just decide to forget the constitution of this country and say sod it we are staying???

The UK doesn't have a constitution.

The referendum was advisory, and did not need to be acted upon if the government did not wish, but the Tories have decided to drive us all over the cliff for the sake of party unity.

Complete insanity.

Would have love to see any party, irrespective of the colour, ignore the result of the referendum, there was absolutely nothing they could have done but to push through the will of the people on this one.

[RedJ]

Even when it's becoming clear that it's going f**king disastrously and will end in disaster?

[glosterred]

Even when it's becoming clear that it's going f**king disastrously and will end in disaster?

Yes

[RedJ]

...why?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gloster

This Will of the People crack.

Was the Will of the People for us to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union?

What about membership of Euratom? What was the Will of the People on that one?

Or the European Common Aviation Area?

Or Horizon 2020 and Erasmus? What was the Will of the People on those? In or out?

[Sprotyrover]

Gud evening comrades,Russia is our friend 💩Don't you believing all of the Tripe in the bastion of Capitalism Guardian Newspaper! Right got to go uncle Vlads on the Phone!

[glosterred]

Do you honestly think any party would get re-elected if the suddenly said, tell you what, the majority of people who voted out are wrong and we are going to stay.

What was the question we voted on? Something along the lines of do you want to leave the EU yes or no. Not what organisation we want to leave within the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gloster

But that's just it. Your response sums up the confusion.

There are dozens of ways in which we can "leave the EU". Because, in a sense, the EU is not a single thing. There's a collection of organisations and agreements connected with membership of or association with the EU.

So, for example, Turkey isn't in the EU and it's unlikely that it will be in our lifetimes (despite the lies that Farage and Johnson spun). But it's in the Customs Union.

We're leaving the Customs Union when we leave the EU. Did you know we were going to do that when you voted Leave? I didn't know that was what "Leave" meant, because it was barely mentioned. That was decided by May and a small group of Tory MPs back in January.

I'll tell you what "Leaving the EU" is like. It's like deciding to go on holiday. Imagine a vote:
Do you want to go on holiday?
Yes?
No?

You vote Yes and assume that the decision has been made. But that's only the very first decision. There are hundreds, thousands of "holidays" just like there are hundreds, thousands of ways we could leave the EU.

Do you go abroad or stay in the UK?
City break? Cruise? Beach holiday?
Caravan? Hotel? Camping? Apartment?
All-inclusive? Self-catering? B&B?
Drive? Fly? Train? Ferry?
If you drive, do you take your own car or hire one?
Long weekend? Fortnight? Month?
Ooh. Might go ski-ing. Hadn't thought of that.
Take the kids or a couples holiday?
Summer? Autumn? Winter? Spring?
Package deal or build your own trip?

See what I mean? If you vote for "holiday" the real decisions have barely begun.

So that's why I asked. Do you think that when we leave the EU, we should stay in the CU, Euratom, ECAA, H2020, etc, etc, etc.

We COULD leave the EU but stay in every one of those if we wished. It's not "Stay in everything" or "Leave everything." South Africa, Norway, Iceland and Israel, to name 4 are in H2020 but not in the EU. Should we be?

"Leaving the EU" is meaningless. What really matters is what associated things we are leaving. The single most vacuous thing anyone has said about Brexit is "Brexit means Brexit". Does it f**k. "Brexit" means nothing until you decide what it means. There is no way that a majority of people in June 2016 voted for the Brexit that we are heading towards. So talk about "The Will of the People" is so much piss and wind. 

[SydneyRover]

  Like I said, personally immigration didn't figure for me but it would be interesting to know what effect those accounts actually had and how many people read or were influenced by them..

  Europe will still trade with us but I'm going to give you a couple of examples of why the EU and it's regulations hurt us in manufacturing..
          A couple of years ago China saw a decrease in it's growth.The first thing they did was put a high percentage levy on any Steel imported into their country to keep production internally, meaning UK steel mills were no longer competitive on exports..We couldn't put pressure on there imports to us by returning a levy because EU regulations on freedom of trade forbids it..Production in China went up allowing them to import it back to us cheaper than we can make it..Steel mills closed
     I know of a company who used to make lifting assembly's for most of Europes major assembly manufacturers..Then one day over in Romania a company that mainly dealt internally doing a similar thing received a 15million grant from there own Government to improve the road infrastructure to there factory..This grant was paid for by a EU Development grant...Within months the UK company had lost all it's work because the Romanians were selling the product cheaper than the materials could be bought for in this country,never mind the fact that working conditions and wages differ massively over there..Nobody here would do it,they would be up in arms....The end result,thousands of extra jobs were created in Romania while the uk company went into administration and closed along with everybody's jobs...The irony is that as far as anyone knows,not a single traffic cone was ever put out and the uk basically paid a percentage of the grant that closed it's own business as the money was used to offset production cost....
    That 2,i could give you 52 and that's just in my own experience of being in business and trying to trade in a system that is against you in every turn..

    Like I said different sectors, different opinions I'm sure if you work in the financial sector or a big company with bases all over Europe you could give me reasons to contra that...

Wing co, I believe you're into steel fabrication. My Cousin was the fab bay manager at a fabrication company in Thorne but they were forced to close last year due tocheaper and inferior Chinese imported steel

EU imposes import duties of up to 73.7% on cheap Chinese steel
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tata

The debate around Brexit will not be resolved over single issues but failing to acknowledge the overwhelming view/evidence that voters were ill informed and lied to on top of the Russian scandal and we have a government more focused on its own internal problems than that of running the country spells disaster if we sit around ball watching.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo/Wing Co

Stop and think. Do you REALLY think that we'd be either able or willing to take China on in a trade war?

Really?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Filo/Wing Co

Stop and think. Do you REALLY think that we'd be either able or willing to take China on in a trade war?

Really?

No but neither can the EU.

What might be a better solution could be a ban on Chinese imports of Steel - the French do it why don't we?