Government defeat

[hoolahoop]

Congratulations to your Daughter, Hoola, you must be well pleased as indeed must she.  What a great opportunity not only to expand her education but to also experience and learn from other cultures.     
 
I have friends who voted 'leave' "for the benefit of their children and grandchildren". Ironic isn't it, that by doing so they are denying, or at least making difficult, such opportunities your daughter is able to enjoy.
 
I genuinely do wonder how they think leave will be of benefit to our younger generations.

Thank you NNK , I wonder if they do certainly the lads and lasses at Leeds Uni can't wait to get a degree with international on it - 100s are baling out I've just seen a list on the net ; it's great to see all these youngsters literally going all over the world . Many are going to " English speaking "  countries especially it seems Canada and Australia as well as all over the EU - the concensus is they are looking for careers and contacts abroad in numbers !! Many applicants on the list never got allocated places although they had qualified which is a shame .

[hoolahoop]

Some excuses to wander around the bars in the old harbour 😎

[BillyStubbsTears]

On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN.  I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market.  They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.

Go on then DD.

Does that mean we should be out of the Customs Union?

The Single Market?

Euratom?

Erasmus?

The ERC?

EASA?

SES?

ECAA?

ECHA?

Every single one of those agreements means us giving up a certain amount of “control of our sovereignty”. But every one yields certain benefits. 

What do you think? Should we “take back control” and walk out of all of this agreements?

[hoolahoop]

Actually, Wilts your point about setting the date in stone is important. If the Government is defeated, or more likely backs down, then our leaving date does become more flexible, at least from our side.

It's unclear how the EU will react to things dragging on. I suppose it depends whether they want us in, out or half in and half out.

It seems the Government has compromised on the exit date. 29th March 2019 remains in the Bill but can easily be changed. The Tory rebels seem to have accepted it.

Strikes me as a sensible compromise, but from the Government's point of view they avoid another damaging defeat.

Yes but it will still be another fudge really . Personally I can see why they feel the need  to appease ardent Brexiters who may feel let down by the phase1 concessions though.

It has to be remembered that although the BBC / Sky commentators talk as if phase1  has been signed , sealed and delivered ; there still remain many unanswered questions and areas of contention especially on the meaning of ' divergence ' and of course "
borders " in relation to  N. Ireland .

The so called " implementation " ( why the need to change the wording ? ) period will need sorting out in detail especially the role of the ECJ . Why the problem with this , is it because like Euratom it contains the word European ?

It is rather bizarre watching debate after debate berating the ECJ without once hearing 1 solitary reason why this should be a problem during transition again is it because of the reason above .

I thought we hadn't left Europe and wanted a " deep and special relationship " - the constant slagging off of this court can't be going down well amongst the member states or for that matter their judiciary. Are we saying we don't trust the European judiciary and again why ?

[hoolahoop]

On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN.  I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market.  They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.

The ridiculous thing is we DO  have sovereignty although the Govt. says that we " don't feel as though we have " - we clearly have otherwise we wouldn't be coming out of it arbitrarily .
On the other point , we have far more power over our immigration than we care to admit but we don't exercise it - the problem lies here and we still have to resolve our attitudes as a nation to what is to ññmany people a totally necessary evil.

[hoolahoop]

On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN.  I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market.  They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.

Go on then DD.

Does that mean we should be out of the Customs Union?

The Single Market?

Euratom?

Erasmus?

The ERC?

EASA?

SES?

ECAA?

ECHA?

Every single one of those agreements means us giving up a certain amount of “control of our sovereignty”. But every one yields certain benefits. 

What do you think? Should we “take back control” and walk out of all of this agreements?

Yes if it has the word " European " in the title - quite a sad and inward way of thinking especially as we continue to profess that " we are leaving the EU but NOT  Europe  ". The whole exercise is nonsensical, wasteful , gut wrenching and sickening  !

[Sprotyrover]

I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jesus wept.

[Not Now Kato]

Jesus wept.

Agreed.  Some people really don't understand Brexit at all!

[Filo]

I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc

I voted out, but really?

Is Nigeria an EU enclave, or did you just fail your O level geography?

[Glyn_Wigley]

And people wonder why Remainers are pissed off.

[hoolahoop]

I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc

Sprotyrover.....oh forget it , was that really what you based your vote on ?

This is just one of those Commonwealth countries that we would wish to have a Free Trade deal with post- Brexit and yes like India they would probably want free movement with us too !

I hear people in the media and Parliament stating " that everyone knew what they were voted for " .

Guess what your post totally disproves that theory !

[hoolahoop]

And people wonder why Remainers are pissed off.

This is just one of those reasons . I bet there are many many millions of these circulating out there . Even this theory is so far out of the box that I can't on this occasion blame The Daily Fail, Ex- Press or Currant Bun

[BigH]

I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc

Sproty, I really hate to break this to you but us leaving the EU almost certainly means that the chances of having to accept increased immigration from countries such as Nigeria will go up. The reason being that the price that we will have to pay as we seek to negotiate bilateral trade deals outside of the EU bloc will, in all likelihood, require a significant concession on freedom of movement/granting of visas to the citizens of those nations that we seek to build increased trade links with. One of which will be Nigeria.

If you really want to put the walls up against immigration there's always the North Korean model...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Are we talking about the Nigeria which is seen as an emerging economic powerhouse?

The one which is forecast to have the fastest economic growth of any large economy over the next 30 years?

The one that, by 2050, is forecast to have an economy 50% larger than ours?

Why exactly would millions of Nigerians be queueing up to hide in lorries and get to Britain?

So. Nice one Sproty. You’re a perfect example of the ignorant bigotry that has bequeathed your grandkids a poorer and nastier country.

[Sprotyrover]

Billy a country with a population of 450 million should have a economy 7 times larger than ours, so in reality their GDP will be approx 25 % of ours! Except the Sahara will have eaten away another third of the arable land in Nigeria, oh and they are only one small part of the problem you got a Dozen other Sub sarahan countries in the pooh,the only thing they do productily is increase in population.
Please tell me why I'm a bigot,I have never belittled you on this forum?

[Sprotyrover]

Big H I agree but we wil be in charge of who we let in, not some silly house wife in Berlin,the Mediterranean is about to become a swimming pool and the Eu which traditionally under spends on Defence will expect the U.K. To put the shoulder to the cart.
We are getting out at the right time mark my words, those Syrian fuguees Angie let in 2 years ago will soon be able to claim Eu passports, how many of them are sleepers ? Nobody knows but we do know some are! Also the 700 idiots who bogged off to the 'Promised land' can also sneak back in,the EU was a nice cosy little club 30 years ago today that isn't the case.

[Sprotyrover]

Anyway back to Geography I was one of 12 out of 120 who passed the Africa Geography 'O' level. And hey in 1973 I recall my Geography master telling the class how all of those ex colonial African Ountries would by the millennium have better economies than our own!
And Billy the same will be the case with Nigeria. Zimbabwe gone from being the beadbasket of Africa to being the Basket case! Need I go on?

[Sprotyrover]

Update for Billy, the Uk is expected to have a population of 77 million in 2050 so Niegerians will have 18 % income per head of population compared to a  U.K. Citizen so for every £100 we earn they will earn £18!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

You use a phrase like “That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc” about the people who are putting together one of the most dynamic economies on earth and you are surprised at that attitude being described as bigoted ignorance? Really?

[Akinfenwa]

Who cares what the population of Nigeria is? Whether it's 170 million or 1 trillion, leaving the EU will have no affect the UK's ability to control migration from there.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Big H I agree but we wil be in charge of who we let in, not some silly house wife in Berlin,the Mediterranean is about to become a swimming pool and the Eu which traditionally under spends on Defence will expect the U.K. To put the shoulder to the cart.
We are getting out at the right time mark my words, those Syrian fuguees Angie let in 2 years ago will soon be able to claim Eu passports, how many of them are sleepers ? Nobody knows but we do know some are! Also the 700 idiots who bogged off to the 'Promised land' can also sneak back in,the EU was a nice cosy little club 30 years ago today that isn't the case.

Do you seriously think that leaving the EU will change our ability to decide who we let in from Nigeria one jot? Seriously??

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty

You use a phrase like “That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc” about the people who are putting together one of the most dynamic economies on earth and you are surprised at that attitude being described as bigoted ignorance? Really?

Billy if you want to give somebody your Bank account details so they can be used to free up a million ton oil tanker stuck on a sandbank off  Lagos so be it.

By 2050 Nigeria will go the same way as all of those other mirCle economies,on its fat backside. You clearly lack an understanding of the world outside of the Labour Party meeting room at Denaby club and your Maths is appalling. Explain the maths about the wonderful Nigerian economy and I might take credence whatever else you have to say on the subject.

[Sprotyrover]

Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

PriceWaterhouseCooper predict that by 2050, the Nigerian GDP per capita will be higher than the current levels in China, India, Indonesia, Brazil and  Turkey, and not far short of Russia’s current level. And growing. Fast.

The PWC report says “Nigeria could become one of the world’s leading economies by 2030, with further progress by 2050. Nigeria’s potential advantages for future growth include a large consumer market, a strategic geographic location, and a young and highly entrepreneurial population.

“Overall, Nigeria continues to be an attractive place to invest not because it is an oil producer, but because of the immense size of its domestic market and the extraordinary commercial energy of its people, which remains largely untapped.”

The people whose job it is is to make money from investment opportunities see a highly entrepreneurial population with extraordinary commercial energy.

You, in the other hand, see a sea of humanity desperate to cheat their way into our country and sponge off hard working Brits. You see a few e-mail scammers and assume that defines an entire nation.

You announce that Nigeria will collapse, not grow. On what evidence? How else am I supposed to read that but as bigotry? Why should Nigeria not be able to grow it’s way out of poverty in the way that China, India, Vietnam, Turkey, Indonesia and Brazil have been doing for the past 30 years? Or in the way that we, France and Holland did in the 1700s? Or Germany and Italy in the 1800s? Or Spain in the 1900s? Or much of Eastern Europe in the past few decades?

Why are we special why Nigeria is inevitably a basket case?

Point?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.

the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigotry

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty

PriceWaterhouseCooper predict that by 2050, the Nigerian GDP per capita will be higher than the current levels in China, India, Indonesia, Brazil and  Turkey, and not far short of Russia’s current level. And growing. Fast.

The PWC report says “Nigeria could become one of the world’s leading economies by 2030, with further progress by 2050. Nigeria’s potential advantages for future growth include a large consumer market, a strategic geographic location, and a young and highly entrepreneurial population.

“Overall, Nigeria continues to be an attractive place to invest not because it is an oil producer, but because of the immense size of its domestic market and the extraordinary commercial energy of its people, which remains largely untapped.”

The people whose job it is is to make money from investment opportunities see a highly entrepreneurial population with extraordinary commercial energy.

You, in the other hand, see a sea of humanity desperate to cheat their way into our country and sponge off hard working Brits. You see a few e-mail scammers and assume that defines an entire nation.

You announce that Nigeria will collapse, not grow. On what evidence? How else am I supposed to read that but as bigotry? Why should Nigeria not be able to grow it’s way out of poverty in the way that China, India, Vietnam, Turkey, Indonesia and Brazil have been doing for the past 30 years? Or in the way that we, France and Holland did in the 1700s? Or Germany and Italy in the 1800s? Or Spain in the 1900s? Or much of Eastern Europe in the past few decades?

Why are we special why Nigeria is inevitably a basket case?

Point?

You have not proved your point, how will Nigeria be a better place in 2050??
It will have doubled the size of its economy but the population will have increased by 125% can you explain how it will be a better place to live?

[Sprotyrover]

Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.

the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigotry

Nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, so I'm a racist now am I ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.

the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigotry

Nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, so I'm a racist now am I ?

So quoting an online dictionary - without expressing an opinion one way or another (so where the hell has the accusation of me calling you a racist has come from FFS?? Get fecked for coming out with that beauty.) so that people can make their own minds up about Billy's use of the word 'bigotry' is 'crawling out from under a stone' is it? Now who's being intolerent, eh?

PS I'm still waiting to find out how us leaving the EU has any effect on how we regulate immigration from Nigeria. You obviously know something the rest of us don't understand so why not educate us all?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

No. It won’t have doubled the size of its economy. If the projections are correct, it will have increased the size of its economy by more than 6 fold by 2050, and increased its GDP per capita (ie living standards) by more than 3 fold. 

Why don’t YOU look at the numbers instead of throwing out idle, out of date criticisms?