Why is the NHS in crisis?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And why was it in crisis at the back end of the 1990s after 18 years of Tory rule and several years of Blair/Brown following the same spending policies?

https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/949939889545596928/photo/1

Beats me. Must be all the scrounging immigrants.

For comparison, this is the % of GDP that some other countries spent on health care in 2015.

Germany 11.1%
France 11.0%
Netherlands 10.9%
Switzerland 11.5%
USA (2016) 17.9%

[Sprotyrover]

Interesting to see that the NHS bumbled along nicely at approx 5% of GDP from 1975 until 2000 now at 7% its in the Do do, what's causing that an ageing population ?

[drfchound]

I don’t know the answer to your question BST but I do know that dumping HS2 and allocating that funding to the NHS would ease the burden considerably.
Not many of us want or would regularly use HS2 but all of us or our families need the NHS.

[bobjimwilly]

in fairness BST, the US healthcare system isn't seen to be as "good" as European countries or over hear, so I don't think it's all about how much you spend, although I agree <10% is too low.

[Sprotyrover]

Private healthcare cover was also non existent in 1975 whereas 4 million have private cover today.
US figures will now be out of date as Obama care has withered away under the Trump administration.

[Sprotyrover]

Israel spends 10.87% of its GDP on health care, I always look at Israeli spending as they are really good with money.

[Sprotyrover]

What is the missing 4% being spent on ? Looking at the graph and Israel we should be spending at least 11% on our Health care.

[Ldr]

Money is an issue definately but not helped by the massive PFI burden on NHS finances. also as posted on another thread

Health tourism is a red herring as you say mate. Its easier to point the finger at scapegoats than to face the actual problems. 1) the crisis in social care which has the knock on effect of hospitals not been able to get people off wards (Bed blocking). 2) the lack of accessibility in primary care (GPs) which leads to ppl attending A&E uneccessarily. 3) the elephant in the room, the post war baby boom has hit old age, means a large elderly population pressure needing attention (look at a population pyramid)

[Sprotyrover]

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

[wilts rover]

Because of political ideology. The Tories dont believe anything should be provided free of charge that could be monitised and they believe personal tax should be as low as possible.

They would like to privatise the NHS and get you to pay for your healthcare - as everyone (who could afford it) did prior to 1945. Jeremy Hunt has written a book about it.

How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?

[wilts rover]

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.

[Ldr]

Ill throw a contraversial view. You could operate the NHS without it owning a single asset. The NHS is treatment free at the point of delivery. As long as the NHS cover the cost of treatment as a patient does it affect you who owns the hospital (from a patient perspective NOT political leanings re private companies making money)

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I've used a lot of the nhs of late and it's been excellent it really has.  Didn't seem that much in crisis for the parts we have needed to use - I even got a fairly decent Christmas dinner.

The use of private companies isn't always a bad thing either. For some things they can be excellent the key is getting good contracts in place.

[drfchound]

Because of political ideology. The Tories dont believe anything should be provided free of charge that could be monitised and they believe personal tax should be as low as possible.

They would like to privatise the NHS and get you to pay for your healthcare - as everyone (who could afford it) did prior to 1945. Jeremy Hunt has written a book about it.

How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?

What is the political preference of the 3 million BUPA Members Wilts?
Do you have an idea how many Tory, Labour,Liberal etc there are ?
Just curious.

[wilts rover]

Because of political ideology. The Tories dont believe anything should be provided free of charge that could be monitised and they believe personal tax should be as low as possible.

They would like to privatise the NHS and get you to pay for your healthcare - as everyone (who could afford it) did prior to 1945. Jeremy Hunt has written a book about it.

How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?

What is the political preference of the 3 million BUPA Members Wilts?
Do you have an idea how many Tory, Labour,Liberal etc there are ?
Just curious.

Given the political preference of those people on twitter who say that health treatment should be paid for they are 100% Tory. But that is a very unscientific survey done by me. Why dont you do one, be interesting to compare?

[wilts rover]

Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

[jucyberry]

My mp is on that list.. He's always first in the queue to be a good little tory. It's certainly worked for him.. He earned himself a nice little knighthood.
😣

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting to see that the NHS bumbled along nicely at approx 5% of GDP from 1975 until 2000 now at 7% its in the Do do, what's causing that an ageing population ?

Ageing population.

New treatments.

New equipment.

New drugs.

Expectation that life expectancy and life quality should improve.

In the 1970s, a man of 65 could expect, on average, to live to about 76. A woman would expect to live to about 82.

Today, the expected ages are about 82 and 86 respectively. A lot of that increase has been due to healthier lifestyles, but a good chunk is also due to better health care. Which costs money.

In general the amount of its GDP a country spends on health is very closely related to its general societal development. The USA is an obvious outlier there. They spend so much because they have a horrifically inefficient system and little control of costs. The pharmaceutical companies and private hospitals make phenomenal profits. The NHS by comparison is an extremely efficient system which is big enough to play strong arm with the pharma companies.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here’s an example of how health care has improved.

In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.

[Sprotyrover]

Here’s an example of how health care has improved.

In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.

So it's not going down the pan at all then! Selfish twits going to A&E because they have a cold, hangover,are pissed and want a warm,have got an abscess on their Dangler from injecting Heroin etc.I have been unfortunate enough to have visited A&E several times lately and the number of useless no  hopers in there blocking access for people who really need help is a disgrace.

[Sprotyrover]

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.

My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.

My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.

You ever had a mortgage?

[SydneyRover]

Here’s an example of how health care has improved.

In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.

So it's not going down the pan at all then! Selfish twits going to A&E because they have a cold, hangover,are pissed and want a warm,have got an abscess on their Dangler from injecting Heroin etc.I have been unfortunate enough to have visited A&E several times lately and the number of useless no  hopers in there blocking access for people who really need help is a disgrace.

How's your dangler?

[Sprotyrover]

Here’s an example of how health care has improved.

In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.

So it's not going down the pan at all then! Selfish twits going to A&E because they have a cold, hangover,are pissed and want a warm,have got an abscess on their Dangler from injecting Heroin etc.I have been unfortunate enough to have visited A&E several times lately and the number of useless no  hopers in there blocking access for people who really need help is a disgrace.

How's your dangler?

Can't see it anymore, hope its still there😂😂😂

[drfchound]

Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

A list from 2014.
However, I have never heard of most of them so have no idea which party they represent.
It is hard to believe that no Labour MPs are BUPA members though.
As a self confessed non political expert I was genuinely asking you if you knew the answer to the question I asked.
Oh and I don’t do Twitter, Instagram or Facebook.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

What's so bad about having private care?

[hoolahoop]

Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154

No Labour people at all that's astounding . Not sure it would be entirely accurate though given that it was for the Mirror launching an attack on the other 2 parties.

[Glyn_Wigley]

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

Funny, I never realised John Major's was a Labour Government. PFI was first introduced in 1992.

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.

My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.

Pity there's been no-one with any common sense in Government since 2010, as they've not stopped doing it.

[Sprotyrover]

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

Funny, I never realised John Major's was a Labour Government. PFI was first introduced in 1992.

PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.

PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.

My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.

Pity there's been no-one with any common sense in Government since 2010, as they've not stopped doing it.

Happy Bew year Glynn

[bobjimwilly]

What's so bad about having private care?

I think the fact people are having to make the choice shows just how bad the situation; we shouldn't need to make a choice! Why shouldn't/can't the NHS function just as well as private health care? The fact that over the years people are starting to believe Tory propaganda, that a fully-functional NHS is a pipedream, shows just how close they are to realising their dream of dismantling the NHS altogether.