The use of Nerve Agent in the UK

[hoolahoop]

Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.

That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok

Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!

[hoolahoop]

The Russians are now saying that Soviet Russia and the Russian Federation never had a programme to develop Novichok, why did n't they day? 😀😀😀😀😀


Only the Russian Embassy in London tweeted that ex Russian spies defected to the UK so we would know how to make it now 🤔🤔🤔🤔


So where did these ex Russian spies learn how to make it if Russie did n't develop it 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔


I think the Russians are telling little fibs 😂😂😂😂

Thanks I missed this Filo , their arrogant and carefree attitude to chemicals and drugs in general tell you all you need to know about these cheating, lying tw**s .......it's in their DNA.

[hoolahoop]

So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!

Are you a Russian bot ? On another thread you were espousing your patriotism and now you are disparaging our navy......I hope you are just jesting ?

[hoolahoop]

I think Sproty nodded off during the Gulf wars, Afghanistan, and other peacekeeping activities in Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia , Macedonia etc.

[German Rover]

It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...

Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉

I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death.  Horrible!

And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.

I must have imagined my twenties then.

[hoolahoop]

It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...

Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉

I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death.  Horrible!

And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.

I must have imagined my twenties then.

Haha , I remember my dear old dad in Malaysia and Aden.

[Sprotyrover]

So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!

How am I disparaging our Navy?

Are you a Russian bot ? On another thread you were espousing your patriotism and now you are disparaging our navy......I hope you are just jesting ?

So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!

Are you a Russian bot ? On another thread you were espousing your patriotism and now you are disparaging our navy......I hope you are just jesting ?

[Sprotyrover]

German Rover in your post you referred to sending an entire generation of young men to war, when was the last time that happened?

[wilts rover]

Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.

That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok

Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!

If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.

What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html

[hoolahoop]

Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.

That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok

Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!

If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.

What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html

Wilts are you being serious have you read my contributions to the thread too. I used this as purely as a comparison to the way that Putin's Govt  and secret services operate generally . How given the opportunity they would muddy the waters , alter the evidence as they attempted to do with MH 17 in Ukraine .

I read no further than your first sentence as I'm sure you have misunderstood what I'm trying to say. Hopefully but I'm not holding my breath , you might just apologise to me ......I'm totally Up to speed on this situation despite your thoughts otherwise and yes I have read every inch of that report .
If you thought I was some spotty youth with a couple of Ö Levels think again - we used to have this " my intellect is better than yours "  shite some time ago seems sadly it's back again .

Altering documents was the very fact I was alluding to and yes siree that was the first thing I troubled to do ..... feck me

[Glyn_Wigley]

German Rover in your post you referred to sending an entire generation of young men to war, when was the last time that happened?

But you were answering the first line of his reply, not the second.

[Dagenham Rover]

It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...

Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉

I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death.  Horrible!

And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.

Bloody hell, how old were the soldiers we sent to Afghanistan?? Ben Parkinson looks good for his age, doesn't he?

Aye and I was in the Falklands and Northern Ireland and nowhere near 90 years old although neither were technically wars there was still some t**t trying to shoot you or blow you up

[Nudga]

And now the death of f Nikolai Glushkov. Its a mirky world.

[Sprotyrover]

German Rover in your post you referred to sending an entire generation of young men to war, when was the last time that happened?

But you were answering the first line of his reply, not the second.

WHAT are you babbling on about?

[Filo]

Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.

That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok

Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!

If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.

What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html

As I understand it Novichok is a mixture of two ingredients, those two ingredients are not chemical weapons until mixed together, so Russia had no need to stock Novichok, just the two ingredients instead. Therefore the Russians were bypassing the regulations to keep chemical weapons and thats why they never declared Novichok

[hoolahoop]

Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.

That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok

Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!

If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.

What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html

As I understand it Novichok is a mixture of two ingredients, those two ingredients are not chemical weapons until mixed together, so Russia had no need to stock Novichok, just the two ingredients instead. Therefore the Russians were bypassing the regulations to keep chemical weapons and thats why they never declared Novichok

Filo you may have a point here , one I certainly didn't consider but I doubt whether this would have got past the CWC inspectors charged with neutralizing this . Why would a ' state sponsored ' killing use such an easily identifiable means of killing for just one agent .Is it likely that the delay laced with daft sarcasm from the Russians just a means to buy the time to find out why and who if anyone  had the novichok unwittingly under their care.  T he myriad of departments and labs to be contacted in Russia must be immense

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hoola

You’re falling into precisely the conspiracy theory trap that Putin wants you to.

There is an elementally simple reason why Putin will have ordered this, and ordered it to be brazenly obvious.

He is publicly bullying and testing the Govt.

He’s got the Tory party in hock to Russian gangster money. That’s not come about by accident. There’s an obvious quid pro quo. It is that this Govt can be pushed around and humiliated and can’t hit back with really hard financial penalties against the Russian interests in the City.

What he’s doing is showing how it’s going to be from now on. He can effectively humiliate and bully us with a free hand.

What Putin wants more than anything is freedom to operate across the region and the globe without fear of being restrained. Effectively making Russia a Great Power again. There was a Russian expert on R4 this morning who hit the nail on the head. He said Russia’s political culture sees geopolitics as a zero sum game. If I win you must lose. So if Russia is to be great, we have to be neutralised and made less effective.

See it that way and this is obvious behaviour from him. He’s demonstrating to the world how weak we are. That’s all that matters. And he’s risking nowt with the World Cup. It appears WE who have been attacked haven’t even got the balls to boycott the competition so there’s zero chance anyone else will. 

[Sprotyrover]

Billy I think Putin is badly done to by the West, we have stationed troops in ex Warsaw Pact Countries something we said we would never do.
What would happen if the likes of Serbia,Montenegro ,republics Serbska in Bosnia and Macedonia invited Putin to Station ants and military Aircraft in their territory.
I can answer that myself there would be a war.

[Ldr]

Consider this conspiracy. This was done by the FSB with foreknowledge of MI6. This has benefits to both countries. Putin gets to solidify his hard man image by coming down very hard on traitors. This country gets the opportunity to clamp down on the Oligarchs that have taken hold here.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr

It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.

[Glyn_Wigley]

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.

Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.

[Sprotyrover]

Ldr

It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.

I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.

[Sprotyrover]

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
[/quote
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.

The Ukraines problem is that there are 8 or 9 million Russians living there who want where they  live to be part of Russia.

[hoolahoop]

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
[/quote
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.

The Ukraines problem is that there are 8 or 9 million Russians living there who want where they  live to be part of Russia.

Hoola

You’re falling into precisely the conspiracy theory trap that Putin wants you to.

There is an elementally simple reason why Putin will have ordered this, and ordered it to be brazenly obvious.

He is publicly bullying and testing the Govt.

He’s got the Tory party in hock to Russian gangster money. That’s not come about by accident. There’s an obvious quid pro quo. It is that this Govt can be pushed around and humiliated and can’t hit back with really hard financial penalties against the Russian interests in the City.

What he’s doing is showing how it’s going to be from now on. He can effectively humiliate and bully us with a free hand.

What Putin wants more than anything is freedom to operate across the region and the globe without fear of being restrained. Effectively making Russia a Great Power again. There was a Russian expert on R4 this morning who hit the nail on the head. He said Russia’s political culture sees geopolitics as a zero sum game. If I win you must lose. So if Russia is to be great, we have to be neutralised and made less effective.

See it that way and this is obvious behaviour from him. He’s demonstrating to the world how weak we are. That’s all that matters. And he’s risking nowt with the World Cup. It appears WE who have been attacked haven’t even got the balls to boycott the competition so there’s zero chance anyone else will. 

Hoola

You’re falling into precisely the conspiracy theory trap that Putin wants you to.

There is an elementally simple reason why Putin will have ordered this, and ordered it to be brazenly obvious.

He is publicly bullying and testing the Govt.

He’s got the Tory party in hock to Russian gangster money. That’s not come about by accident. There’s an obvious quid pro quo. It is that this Govt can be pushed around and humiliated and can’t hit back with really hard financial penalties against the Russian interests in the City.

What he’s doing is showing how it’s going to be from now on. He can effectively humiliate and bully us with a free hand.

What Putin wants more than anything is freedom to operate across the region and the globe without fear of being restrained. Effectively making Russia a Great Power again. There was a Russian expert on R4 this morning who hit the nail on the head. He said Russia’s political culture sees geopolitics as a zero sum game. If I win you must lose. So if Russia is to be great, we have to be neutralised and made less effective.

See it that way and this is obvious behaviour from him. He’s demonstrating to the world how weak we are. That’s all that matters. And he’s risking nowt with the World Cup. It appears WE who have been attacked haven’t even got the balls to boycott the competition so there’s zero chance anyone else will. 

I don't think I'm falling into any trap because I have accepted that at the very least the Russian State is responsible for the loss of some or all of this nerve agent.
All but the stupid accept that novichok was made with a view to it being used by that State and therefore they are fully culpable for it's very existence, control and handing over under International agreements for destruction late last year under agreements wherever it was kept and by whoever was keeping it.

I agree that in all likelihood that this was undeclared  and  by that nature ultimately was his responsibility as the man in charge to hand over any stocks in existence.

Logic would argue,  that given the nature of this man that he would use this nerve agent to piss off and play with those that were in hock to him ....to mock them or in his words to " ensure that wherever they were any TRAITOR to the motherland would CHOKE on the 30 pieces of silver " ( paraphrased slightly ).
Now I haven't fallen for any trap because ultimately whatever the circumstances ....he as the President is guilty.
Whether that's  because he knew or one of the Russian agencies knew of it's existence and used it is irrelevant the buck still stops with him .In fact the theory that he might have " lost control " of a warfare grade chemical nerve agent is even more damning potentially given its lethal properties.

I agree that there's only the very slimmest chance that the Russian State could have lost control of it but it's possible and I don't accept that I've fallen into any trap with this scheming bas**@rd. I fully accept why our Govt. and of course you have reached this conclusion - it is by far the most likely one given all the facts currently in the public domain. So no traps, no " get out of jail free " cards for Poots but just the slimmest chance that maybe someone has lost patience with him and might be preparing to move against him just when he thinks he could be reaching his finest moment with the world at his door ?

Either way he is knee deep in shit of his own making . Either way this Govt. of ours needs to start working in the intetests of the people , stop taking what amounts to serious bribrd

[hoolahoop]

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
[/quote
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.

The Ukraines problem is that there are 8 or 9 million Russians living there who want where they  live to be part of Russia.

I hope you don't think that having your ethnic group in another's country gives a leader the right to attack a sovereign country ? Is he protecting them by formenting trouble , sending tanks and troops in , giving these people the means to shoot down civilian airliners ( MH17 )  . Make no bones about it this man is a control freak with both the means and motives to cause problems anywhere in the world is he justified ?

[hoolahoop]

Ldr

It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.

I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.

They would be equally critical at the thought of returning to a greater Russia or USSR after decades of existing once again as sovereign countries in their own  right !

[Glyn_Wigley]

Ldr

It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.

I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.

Given that these ex-Warsaw Pact counties are members of NATO and that therefore their own armed forces are also NATO troops, it'd be very difficult for those countries NOT to have NATO troops on their own soil!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr

It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.

But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.

I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.

Yeah? Have you tried speaking to folk from ex- Warsaw Pact countries?

[idler]

Didn't Russia settle thousands of their citizens into the Baltic States so that they had an excuse to supposedly protect their interests and rights.

[Sprotyrover]

Didn't Russia settle thousands of their citizens into the Baltic States so that they had an excuse to supposedly protect their interests and rights.

Such as the Kalingrad Oblast? Sandwiched between Lithuanian and Poland.
There's a joke from that part of the world...2 old men are sat in a village in Eastern Europe during their lifetimes it has been part of Poland, then Part of Russia etc. One say to the othe "hey what country is our village in these days,Russia or Poland.?"the other replies "Poland why?" The first replies
"Thank god for that I just couldn't be doing with another one of those Russian Winters!" 😉