Cambridge Analytica ...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

That last sentence of yours is disgraceful. Is that what we’ve come to?

[Not Now Kato]

   It will take 5 years to know who was lied to, (to say it was all one sided is stupid ) then and only about then will we know for sure whether the vote to leave  was the right one or not.
   Everything until then is guesswork or wishful thinking, at my age I may not be around then, but either way I am sure some on here will be happy for everyone to be in the poor house, just so they were proved right.

I have children and grandchildren and would certainly NOT be happy for them to be struggling just so someone is proved right.  I'd rather the people of this country saw sense.
 
 As for who was lied to and who was doing the lying....

[BillyStubbsTears]

NNK

Bang on. The LAST thing I want is for my kids to be growing up in a country that is much poorer than it should be. I’d be delighted to be wrong. I’m, frankly, disgusted that people in here think I’d want to be proved right to be able to say “I told you so.”

But the ONLY people who are saying that the Brexit we’re heading for is going to work out alright are ones who would make me check the calendar if the told me it was Tues 27 March.

Politicians: Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Farage and Trump.

Economist: Patrick Minford. The man who persuaded Thatcher to implement policies that turned the 1981 recession from a bad one to a catastrophic one.

Papers: Mail, Express, Sun.

The thing is, democracy doesn’t mean going to a polling booth and then saying, “What will be will be.” If you really want a strong democracy, you need to think about the issues constantly and you need to face up to the facts that emerge and you need to be big enough to change your mind when you’re wrong.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Who needs a referendum? We should have just sold the result to the highest bidder.

[hoolahoop]

Hoola.

You can tell that the Brexiteers are getting twitchy about the whole CA thing.

This t**t has rejoined the fray. The one who told us that the British public had had enough of listening to experts is now telling us that we’ve got to listen to the decision of the very people he and his long-term mate Cummings misled.
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelgove/status/977849041051668482

Yes I have been following Gove and others on Twitter - it's unbelievable some of the assertions they have been making.
The weirdest thing today was watching yet another " Opposition day " debate in Parliament on this very subject  ; apart from there being only a dozen or so Tory M!Ps on the benches NOT ONE WAS PREPARED TO DEBATE !

[hoolahoop]

   Everything until then is guesswork or wishful thinking, at my age I may not be around then, but either way I am sure some on here will be happy for everyone to be in the poor house, just so they were proved right.

Look Selby, you have pissed me off royally , do you really think that some of us have argued against the current and future effects of Brexit as if it were some cold, hard and meaningless subject in a debate called to test out our skills at debating ?

Do you think we don't have children  ( I have a 20 year old ) others have grand- children ?  We ALREADY  know the effects this will have on the current and future prospects of our families,  to suggest we argue just for arguments sake is disgraceful at best. We aren't arguing about this for fun , indeed some of us won't be here in 5 years time but our poorer children will be here  to pick up the costs of this dreadful act of self- harm we do to our nation and its people. Long after the " Russian affair "  has gone , this country will be left with a weaker voice and our kids will be left poorer economically , socially and morally  .

The  Path we are on has already achieved that with yet more dangers to come ; the road we are on is simply unsustainable and weakens us as a nation.

You do us a disservice by implying that this is some meaningless debate based on dubious facts and figures and without severe present and future implications for every man, woman and child in this country.  I am disgusted and saddened by your blasé attitude to the biggest question to come in front of this country , not since the war, but ever because this is about a  choice and it is in our hands to change this if we so wished not be  saddled with such a self- harming decision. I won't be or at least I'm told I won't be here in 5 years time sadly to sagely tell you how right or wrong I was by then the damage would be irreversible. 

Can't you see that something STINKS about this whole process why it was brought about,  who stands to profit from it and the means by which it has been delivered ?  Say goodnight to any arguments in 5 years time , as future generations fight to try and reverse this  clusterf**k that OUR generation has imposed on generations to come .

It will be far too late to do anything about it and who won the debate certainly won't be the most pressing argument ! I and others certainly won't be gloating ......

[hoolahoop]

What's worrying about this saga is that the " Corbyn is an anti- semite " story broke at the same time - coincidence to bury this story ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Don't forget the 'Corbyn was a Communist spy' story as well!

[Sprotyrover]

The ‘Story’ was concocted by the Jewish Council of Britain I believe. Doubt very much it was done to provide a smokescreen for other news.

[hoolahoop]

This is an old story a " lets sift through and summat will turn up for a rainy day " sort of story. Of course this was ' saved ' up in readiness for the closure of Parliament and used prior to the May Council elections. After all there are many leading Jewish Tories ( especially Brexiters ) who I am sure will have close contacts with the Board of Deputies .

This story has come out with a backdrop of the Phase 2 Brexit negotiations, the storm over AIQ, Facebook and Cambridge Analytica tampering with the Referendum , over- expenditure on behalf of the Leave campaigns and before the May elections and the closure of Parliament .
I'm sure a welcome relief for a beleaguered Tory Party if not May herself who has had a relatively triumphant week with the support over her Russia stance
Before you ask I'm definitely not an anti- Semite or Holocaust denier quite the opposite and am aware that both Labour AND  Tory Parties also have a problem with Anti- Semitic/ Israeli behaviour.
 One problem for the Labour Party is that any support for the Palestinians on the Gaza strip is seen as wholly anti - Semitic. The other problem being their weakness in dealing with complaints  on   this subject in the past.

[albie]

Good to know that through all this national security is in such reliable hands;
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/29/cambridge_analytica_parent_firm_had_routine_access_to_uk_secret_information/

I'm sure that if any wallpapering over the cracks is needed, Cambridge Anaglypta has it covered!

[hoolahoop]

Rotten to the core this goes straight to the top of both Trump's lot and ours .

Remain NEVER had a chance of winning.

[hoolahoop]

Good to see that this story no longer is worthy of added comment or update . We are sleepwalking into this mess and the Corbyn " anti- semitism" story has arrived in good time to distract the MSM who have had a field day . Prior to this it was how much political clout we still had in the world ( with the support of the  EU ) covering up the weakness of Phase 2 negotiations .

[wesisback]

It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.

[hoolahoop]

It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.

Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this  is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO.  So far he has not realised the strength of the  opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.

[albie]

Good longer article on the defence connections of these people;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/cambridge-analytica-is-what-happens-when-you-privatise-military-propaganda

It looks like the election rigging might be the thin end of a larger wedge!

[wesisback]

It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.

Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this  is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO.  So far he has not realised the strength of the  opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.

He does need to act swiftly to oust these cuckoo's in the nest first and foremost. The likes of Ian Austin, Owen Smith, Caroline Flint and the rest of the old guard have to be removed if Labour are to move any further forward. People will cry the SDP and their work as constituency MPs but as it stands they are doing more damage to Labour's chances at a time when you are absolutely correct, the priority should be saving the Brexit situation as much as is possible. If the party can't come together over that shambles it never will and there needs to be changes made. I'm not against the idea a change at leadership level either if the right head emerges. A return to New Labour would be a disaster but is thankfully impossible due to the strength of the membership and the NEC now.

[RedJ]

Aye but if he f**ks off the likes of Smith and Flint it'll be spun as a "Stalinist purge" won't it...

[wesisback]

Of course it will, they'll cry on Twitter and in the MSM that its been a stitch up then they'll tootle off to start their own party. It wouldn't surprise me if a couple even get swooped up by the Tories.
It's a really tough call. Corbyn has silenced these characters time and time again and yet they emerge again a couple of months later making noise and distracting from the topics we should be focussing on.
Even with Christine Shawcroft stepping down from the NEC and being replaced by Eddie Izzard for the time being, the impending election will see an actual left wing candidate replace him and ensure that mandatory selection of all candidates will come about.
It's with this that I believe Labour will need a fresh face to start its new era. Personally I'd like to see Angela Rayner step up, though she certainly needs some polishing for the top job.

[hoolahoop]

Good longer article on the defence connections of these people;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/cambridge-analytica-is-what-happens-when-you-privatise-military-propaganda

It looks like the election rigging might be the thin end of a larger wedge!

Wow !!

It looks like it is no longer advisable to speak out against this lot.

[hoolahoop]

It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.

Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this  is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO.  So far he has not realised the strength of the  opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.

He does need to act swiftly to oust these cuckoo's in the nest first and foremost. The likes of Ian Austin, Owen Smith, Caroline Flint and the rest of the old guard have to be removed if Labour are to move any further forward. People will cry the SDP and their work as constituency MPs but as it stands they are doing more damage to Labour's chances at a time when you are absolutely correct, the priority should be saving the Brexit situation as much as is possible. If the party can't come together over that shambles it never will and there needs to be changes made. I'm not against the idea a change at leadership level either if the right head emerges. A return to New Labour would be a disaster but is thankfully impossible due to the strength of the membership and the NEC now.

Wes too far to the left and you will sacrifice too much of the middle ground to the Lib/Dems and more dangerously the Tories . Losing it to the Lib/ Dems is not a disaster as a strong 3rd Party taking seats off the Tory Party ( in Tory heartlands btw ) could give Labour the means to oust a Tory Party and become the senior partner in a Rainbow Coalition. However Labour , like the others in the potential coalition, are going to have to fight against the lot,  .... a hostile  MSM, slur campaigns, *dark* money, CA/SDL etc. Corbyn should be using his hard-won clout to build loose alliances with ALL potential allies now .

As for Caroline Flint  - what an appalling woman . Any move to deselect that excuse for an MP has my backing....where do I sign up to get rid .

 It doesn't help, with the local vote giving her an excuse to move further to the Right and of course give huge backing for the spurious " will of the people " nonsense. She is yet another of the local MPs to blame the EU for the area's woes when she , Ed Miliband and Rosie Winterton held high office and could have influenced the growth and Re-generation of this area pre 2010 . Incidentally the EU was doing just that and still continues to do so for now at least . When you look around and see just how much EU  money  poured into the area - it's devastating to think that we will in future have to compete for ever- dwindling monies from a deaf Westminster . Welcome to the past.

[Glyn_Wigley]

God forbid that any Labour MPs should  act up and continually criticise the leadership of the party or vote against the party line. Thank heavens Jeremy has never done anything like that.

[hoolahoop]

God forbid that any Labour MPs should  act up and continually criticise the leadership of the party or vote against the party line. Thank heavens Jeremy has never done anything like that.

Of course they should be able to speak out against the party but should they when it's patently obvious that both Corbyn and the Labour Party have become the object of the Government's  reflective tactics. The ' Conservative " friends of Israel "  lobby will use MSM, the BBC and anything else possible to take down the Labour Party at this crucial time.

Unfortunately they should be closing ranks but because these things ' however big or small ' have gone unresolved for so long ( prior to the Corbyn leadership  - then it is easy to pick holes in the organisation at will. Especially with the pre- existing differences between the Corbynistas and the PLP.
They should be all fighting the Tory Party and Brexit , this is a very deliberate diversion to further strengthen Treeza May's position following a weak but not unexpected Transition agreement.

" Planned " - you bet your life it was. 

[wesisback]

It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.

Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this  is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO.  So far he has not realised the strength of the  opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.

He does need to act swiftly to oust these cuckoo's in the nest first and foremost. The likes of Ian Austin, Owen Smith, Caroline Flint and the rest of the old guard have to be removed if Labour are to move any further forward. People will cry the SDP and their work as constituency MPs but as it stands they are doing more damage to Labour's chances at a time when you are absolutely correct, the priority should be saving the Brexit situation as much as is possible. If the party can't come together over that shambles it never will and there needs to be changes made. I'm not against the idea a change at leadership level either if the right head emerges. A return to New Labour would be a disaster but is thankfully impossible due to the strength of the membership and the NEC now.

Wes too far to the left and you will sacrifice too much of the middle ground to the Lib/Dems and more dangerously the Tories . Losing it to the Lib/ Dems is not a disaster as a strong 3rd Party taking seats off the Tory Party ( in Tory heartlands btw ) could give Labour the means to oust a Tory Party and become the senior partner in a Rainbow Coalition. However Labour , like the others in the potential coalition, are going to have to fight against the lot,  .... a hostile  MSM, slur campaigns, *dark* money, CA/SDL etc. Corbyn should be using his hard-won clout to build loose alliances with ALL potential allies now .

As for Caroline Flint  - what an appalling woman . Any move to deselect that excuse for an MP has my backing....where do I sign up to get rid .

 It doesn't help, with the local vote giving her an excuse to move further to the Right and of course give huge backing for the spurious " will of the people " nonsense. She is yet another of the local MPs to blame the EU for the area's woes when she , Ed Miliband and Rosie Winterton held high office and could have influenced the growth and Re-generation of this area pre 2010 . Incidentally the EU was doing just that and still continues to do so for now at least . When you look around and see just how much EU  money  poured into the area - it's devastating to think that we will in future have to compete for ever- dwindling monies from a deaf Westminster . Welcome to the past.

I agree that too far left won't do the party any favour, however I don't think that I've seen anything to suggest that any policies are particularly hard left. In comparison to what we've had under the Tories and New Labour possibly but to link it as the MSM do to Communist Russia is actual madness. The last election shows that there is a satiable appetite for a more Socialist party than what the two prior main parties were offering. It hasn't convinced the bulk of Britain clearly but it has shown there is a growing unrest that wants to see change.
In terms of the anti-semitism reported of late, I grant I am fairly new to the Labour movement. Whether there is an inherent problem I don't know and I certainly can't speak with solid evidence for every constituency, group or member, however from the time I have spent, I've never heard a single slur or even mention of anything to do with the Jewish religion nor have I seen anyone obsessed with the issues with Palestine as the media would have everyone believe. I have seen the odd abhorrent tweet and post on Facebook but they are treated with the contempt they deserve. Whether these people actually have any form of association with the Left could well be another matter and if they are found to be members I would fully expect them to be expelled and passed onto relevant authorities. Which is where my issues lie a bit with these Labour Politicians now so eager to speak out. Lets not forget that it was only the other year we had Iain McNicol ensuring he could suspend as many as possible to try and deny a Corbyn leadership victory. If the anti-semitic problem is so rife in Labour, why weren't these same Politicians ramping the pressure on then to the man who quite clearly can. There's no end game to this where these same characters can continuously attack in the way they are, at the carefully planned times they are and see the Labour Party continue to move forward.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

But Corbyn cannot centrally remove candidates, MPs etc - his whole selling point has been that it's about the voice of the people in the party and thus is solely up to the local teams to select their candidate not him!

The whole anti semitism thing is a very strange one.  I don't quite understand why it's such a problem for the left but it really is.  Even that momentum lot acknowledge it and it's all too easy for the other parties to kick up a fuss which clearly has been.  Point is though if he can't get a grip of it in his own party how could he run the government and country?

On to the point of big data companies, well it stinks IMO.  Granted if people have nothing to hide then there is no real issue, I'm not too fussed what happens to my data yet at the same time I feel it needs control as it could do some damage.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wes.

The economic policy which Labour ran on at the last Election was indistinguishable from that presented by Miliband and Balls at the previous election. How do you conclude from that that there’s a groundswell of opinion wanting a more Socialist approach? More socialist than what? On the economic front, he’s offering nothing more socialist than Gordon Brown did, apart from supporting us leaving the EU, which has always been a far-left aspiration.

Meanwhile, as I’ve been saying since Corbyn’s ascension, it’s foreign policy that will kill him electorally.  His comments today on the Skripal affair are disgraceful. He’s playing party politics with an issue that is about national security. And there’s a long standing reason for this. He has, throughout his political life, been so anti-NATO and anti-American that he is prepared to turn a blind eye to the actions of anyone who is an enemy of NATO and America. Even if they try to assassinate people on UK soil. f**k knows it takes a lot to make me side with Boris Johnson on an argument, but Corbyn has managed to push me that way today. He’s playing 1980s student union politics. And it’s as f**king stupid now as it was then.

[wilts rover]

By saying that Boris Johnson has questions to answer about why he gave an interview saying that Porton Down had told him the nerve agent definately came from Russia, along with a FO tweet saying the same thing, when the head of Porton Down said himself they dont know where it came from?

That makes you mad does it Billy? One of the most senior figures in the government tells lies on tv and you are mad with the leader of the opposition asking him to explain why he did it?

You go tell the people of Salisbury, who learnt today from the Security Minister that this highly dangerous substances which 'if it had been deployed differently thousands would have been in danger' but were told they could clean off with wet wipes, who has been turning blind eyes and playing 1980's student politics.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

You know very well what I mean. Johnson is a prick and a buffoon who regularly puts his foot in his mouth. And he could and should be brought to task for that.

But there is a way of doing that. Corbyn has consistently refused to criticise Russia at all for this affair. He’s not saying “the Foreign Secretary is undermining the case against Russia by not being in control of his mouth.”  If he’d said that I would agree with him 100%.

No, what Corbyn is doing, very clinically and deliberately is accentuating the undermining of the case against Russia. He is highlighting Johnson’s idiocy to throw doubt on the Russian guilt.

Because that is the MO of the Corbyn inner circle. Remember, his closest political ally, Seamus Milne, went on record as saying that people in the West were focussing on Russia’s support for Assad dropping chemical weapons and barrel bombs on his own people in order to “divert attention” from equal atrocities by the West. Milne has also frequently gone on record questioning whether Putin was really responsible for the murder of several anti-Putin figures in Russia.

Corbyn himself wrote an utterly disgraceful piece in the Morning Star five years ago (conveniently, it no longer exists on their archives - I cannot think why) in which he castigated NATO for “using the excuse of Srebrenica” to justify intervention in Kosovo. That’s “using the excuse” of learning from one of THE most appalling derelictions of duty in Europe since WWII when western leaders sat on their hands and let 8,000 men and boy civilians be massacred by militias supported by Russia, and the women left behind be gang-raped. Corbyn May well find Srebrenica appalling. I don’t know because he didn’t focus on that. He instead castigated NATO for intervening in Kosovo to stop a repeat happening.

This is a topic where you choose which side you are on. Western liberal democracy, for all its manifest flaws. Or authoritarian regimes. Corbyn regularly makes it clear where his sympathies lie. 

There’s a theme here.

[wesisback]

The thing is Andy, the West hardly has a gleaming record when it comes to truths in these quarters. We still have Tony Blair chirping about Corbs now instead of being locked up in the Hague for the downright lies his government were complicit in.
Now I'm no expert in Nerve Agents and the likelihood of then coming from elsewhere, nor do I trust Putin and Russia in the slightest but from what I have read today, if Porton Down are categorically saying they did not make that confirmation of where this Novichok came from then it seems that Corbyns original statement of not jumping the gun seems to be quite the sensible statement of reflection.
Another chalk line next to his name on the right side of history.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Missing the point Wes.

There is enough evidence for 20 countries to take action against Russia. Are you saying they are all in on some confidence trick?

I entirely agree that Johnson over-played his mouth, as he is prone to do because he’s a f**king idiot. But on matters of national security as important as this, you don’t play the sort of games that Corbyn is playing here. Not unless you have another motive.

As for Corbyn and history, well, Blair was right on Sierra Leone. He was right on Kosovo. That didn’t make him right on Iraq.

Equally, Corbyn was right on Iraq. That does not automatically make him right on Russia. Unless you believe in a Pope-like infallibility of certain politicians (and there does seem to be a LOT of that attitude amongst Corbynistas) then you assess every politician on their merits on each argument. I’ve said for a long time that I am 100% behind Corbyn’s economic case. But his attitude to Russia, his preparedness to turn a blind eye and his lifelong hatred of NATO scare the hell out of me. Look at his actions on Skripal through that lens and there is a very obvious thread.