For all you fake Paddys

[Bentley Bullet]

so we should just stop using our flag and let the racists steal its identity?

No, we should use it to show we aren't all Kitsons. Can you show me where I said what you're making out I've said? cos I'm not sure how you could read that into my post.

What am I making out you've said! I asked you a question. I asked you whether we should stop using the flag and let the racists steal its identity.

Some of us do use it to show we aren't all Kitsons, but some people still think we all are!

[RedJ]

The rabid section of the Scottish nationalists have hijacked the saltire as an anti English/British symbol, just saying.

[MachoMadness]

Machomadness, do you think the longer the essay you write the more convincing you come across?

No doubt many people in this country think that everyone who displays an English flag is racist, just like there are many who think everyone who voted Brexit is racist also. But why is it only the English flag that is considered as a symbol of racism, and the Scottish and Irish, for instance, not? Don't they have similar idiots using their flags in a similar racist way?

Regarding the (different!) subject of the treatment and deportation of people who are wrongly sent packing, I have the utmost sympathy.

Detailed answers are important. I thought I'd do you a solid and go in-depth as you seemed to be a bit confused by my previous post and were reading really odd things into it. Which is why that Windrush tangent came up.

I'm sure there are idiots in every nation on Earth, who wave their flags about to say all kinds of things. Never said there weren't. The English flag has that stain though because our population is much, much bigger than any of the other home nations, therefore we have more knuckle-draggers who go out to drag it through the mud. It also means the British press is more catered towards England specifically, which is why The Sun has several of these "foreigners get upset at English flag" stories a year to stoke the flames a bit. Those stories are b*llocks every time, but there's an audience for it. Less so in Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

[Bentley Bullet]

Ah, so to avoid confusion to your readers you change the subject. I see!

Because we are a bigger country we have more knuckle-draggers than the likes other home nations. Doesn't this mean that we also have a higher number of decent, level-headed, non-racist people? People who, like the Scots and Irish, should be allowed to stand up and fly their country's flag without fellow countrymen accusing them of being part of the Knuckle-dragging, racist brigade?

[RedJ]

I see you've ignored my post, probably as it doesn't fit your narrative, but there are Scots who do see certain sections of Scottish flagwavers as part of a bigoted anti English sect.

[MachoMadness]

Ah, so to avoid confusion to your readers you change the subject. I see!

Because we are a bigger country we have more knuckle-draggers than the likes other home nations. Doesn't this mean that we also have a higher number of decent, level-headed, non-racist people? People who, like the Scots and Irish, should be allowed to stand up and fly their country's flag without fellow countrymen accusing them of being part of the Knuckle-dragging, racist brigade?

Yes, it does mean that! But where has anyone said those people shouldn't be able to fly their flag? In my first post on the topic I said as long as you weren't being a d**khead about it you'd be alright.

[Bentley Bullet]

There's no law against it. It's the shandy drinking, Nancy, Lily-livered, namby-pamby, powder puff, do-gooder, snowflake Jessies who object to it and would love it to be banned that cause the problem.

You know the ones I mean, the PC brigade. I use the term informally to categorise certain people who patronise to the point of being condescending.

[Bentley Bullet]

I see you've ignored my post, probably as it doesn't fit your narrative, but there are Scots who do see certain sections of Scottish flagwavers as part of a bigoted anti English sect.

So? There are English people who think ALL English flag-wavers are racist bigots.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bored with the impending end of the season BB?

Actually, it does seem rather simple to me. It seems to me that you're getting cause and effect the wrong way round. People didn't start feeling that to wave the flag was racist because some do-gooders decided it was. We had decades of street marches by NF/BNP/EDL types who had claimed the flag for their cause and it is inevitable tarnished as a result.

That was really unfortunate, as was the lack of push-back at the time. The rest of us let them define the issue. I wish we hadn't. I wish we had an untarnished a symbol of the positive things that we are proud of about our country (see, for example, Danny Boyle's brilliant opening ceremony at the London Olympics). But unfortunately we didn't. We had years of these people associating strident flag waving with aggressively racist attitudes.

So, no, we shouldn't automatically equate anyone, or even the vast majority of people who wave a St George flag with racists. I don't know who the "many people" are who do this. I've certainly never met one in my life. I'm assuming you do know may of them, or you wouldn't raise the issue and you'd be perfectly correct to condemn them because it's a stupid attitude.

But equally, it's being willfully daft to ignore the fact that racist people and organisations do wrap themselves in the flag. There's a big job to do to sideline them and reclaim the flag if that's what you want to do. Of course, you might be better off starting by raising the issue with them rather than starting a fight on here with people who have never mentioned the issue.

Personally, while I wish you well with that, it's not something I'll be joining in with. I celebrate the great things that we have given the world every day. I cringe at the bad things we've done to the world whenever I'm reminded of them. I don't really see the need to venerate a pseudo-christian symbol on some fabric, or to use a random day to commemorate a quasi-mythological Cappadocian warrior to make myself feel more "English". But if you do, then that's fine. I genuinely wish you well in it. I assume that you, being so protective of the strengths of Englishness (one of which is our near-infinite tolerance) will appreciate that the rest of us can have a different take and be no less English than you.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, I'll go along with most of that, apart from your accusation of me starting the argument on here. The first person to disagree with me started it!

[hoolahoop]

All of that to decide how, why and whether you should have the right to fly  our flag.
Yes of course we all can if we do it with decent intentions and don't unnecessarily offend other human beings.

[Glyn_Wigley]

So why is waving an English flag in celebration of St George's day considered by some to be disparaging or demeaning to foreigners to the point of being racist?

Who are these 'some'?

I get the impression that you would be one for a start.

Then you're wrong. As per usual.

[RedJ]

BST, I'll go along with most of that, apart from your accusation of me starting the argument on here. The first person to disagree with me started it!

You were the first person to bring up the racist argument.

[Bentley Bullet]

And here's me thinking it was you who introduced the racist tones when you mentioned nationalism.

[Bentley Bullet]

So why is waving an English flag in celebration of St George's day considered by some to be disparaging or demeaning to foreigners to the point of being racist?

Who are these 'some'?

I get the impression that you would be one for a start.

Then you're wrong. As per usual.

Thank goodness for that. I'd be more concerned if I ever had the same opinion as you.

[RedJ]

My comment was a tag onto what hoolahoop said, yours was quite clearly looking for a reaction.

[Bentley Bullet]

So was mine!