England - Nigeria

[scawsby steve]

Sorry guys but I'm with Billy on this. I saw England win the World Cup at a time when players earned so little that some of them didn't have cars, and went home after matches on the bus; how can I empathise with someone who's paid a quarter of a million a week, and is such a prima donna he can't even be bothered to turn up on time.

I'll ask a simple question. Which would excite you the most, England winning the World Cup, or Rovers winning the League One title again? I know my answer.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The first half performance was good except we were quite wasteful in good areas, especially failing to pick out a man from wide areas when we got in behind.

We were also weak in midfield although that was made up for somewhat with Alli, Kane and Lingard dropping deep from time to time to give us more fluidity. In the second half that weakness was exposed as Dier just continued to amble around which you can't afford to do at International level. I think Henderson would do a better job keeping things ticking over, constantly moving.

Defensively we look OK although when under pressure Stones and Walker have a tendancy to lose composure. Young did OK but his inability to go round the outside will cost him.

Finally, Sterling needs to be got hold of to practice his finishing as it looks like he's going to find himself in the best positions. We can't afford to be as wasteful.

Work in progress, improvements required.

[GazLaz]

Sorry guys but I'm with Billy on this. I saw England win the World Cup at a time when players earned so little that some of them didn't have cars, and went home after matches on the bus; how can I empathise with someone who's paid a quarter of a million a week, and is such a prima donna he can't even be bothered to turn up on time.

I'll ask a simple question. Which would excite you the most, England winning the World Cup, or Rovers winning the League One title again? I know my answer.

England winning the World Cup, definitley.

[Jonathan]

We’ve been here before it feels. In fact only two years ago I remember getting involved in a very similar debate, fending off all the pre tournament negativity only to be rewarded with one of the most abject England displays I’ve ever seen.

As far as I’m concerned that’s been and gone now. I do understand the disconnect that people feel, it’s their prerogative. But I’m excited about the tournament as I always am and similarly that’s my right.

Personally I choose not to pay attention to the relentless sense of anguish spiralling into anger that’s peddled by the press and clearly infiltrates large factions of the country. It’s the England football team, it’s immigration, it’s politics. You name it, you can see the parallels. Everything’s shit and we’re all offended by it. It seems to be how we’re being conditioned. Recently somebody on here implied that they cannot allow themselves to feel optimism where Rovers are concerned as you just get disappointed.

But if, and I realise it’s a big IF, England can do themselves justice then I love the sense of hope and camaraderie that temporarily sweeps the country. Or at least parts of it. We need it more than ever at a time like this. Can we reach the later stages? Yes. Will we do it? We’ll just have to see. But I’ll go into the tournament hopeful.

I like Southgate and I feel he’s managing a lot of the nonsense that surrounds the squad very well. At times this England team looks like it can be fluid and exciting to watch but of course there’s a lot still to prove. One thing for sure is that the Raheem Sterling that plays for Manchester City would give us a much better chance of success and has the capability to put any defence in the world on the back foot. So I couldn’t care less where he shops, what sink he’s bought for his mum or what has been inked onto him and why. I just want there to be a setting where he can produce his very best in an England shirt. I believe he wants to - it’s not about desire. But I honestly don’t think the press want him to, and they dictate large sections of public opinion.

It’s a shame but that’s England and it has been for as long as I can remember now. Failure and disappointment fits too neatly alongside the general outlook.

[DonnyNoel]

Not going to lose much sleep if England don’t do well as like others have pointed out, mediocrity has become the norm in recent tournaments. That said, we’re making progress under a manager with a clear idea of how he wants us to set up and not just picking the perceived best players and trying to shoe-horn them into an ill fitting system. I’d also say some of these players are better than they’re being given credit for.

[The Red Baron]

I didn't watch a minute of it. I was watching the cricket from Headingley. Although come the World Cup I'll be watching.

I can see us qualifying from the group but thereafter, who knows?

[drfchound]

England,in reality, are probably no better than a QF team at best.
If we get that far then I think we will have done ok and of course I will be disappointed when we get eliminated but I won’t be distraught either BST, in the same way as I am not distraught when the Rovers get beaten.
I get on with my life.
Also, I won’t be painting my face red and white either.

It strikes me that too many people have this downer attitude to the England team whenever we go into a tournament and the press always seem to try and find something to try to disrupt the squad or certain players.

I suppose that when we do get knocked out that these people will be very keen to shout out their “ I told you so” pontification.

[DonnyOsmond]

Sterling hasn't looked out of place playing with players like David Silva, Sane, De Bruyne but yeah he wouldn't get in another countries team... Walker is also considered to be one of the best right backs in the world and then there's a few other lads that don't look out of place at the top level of the second best league in the world.

[ravenrover]

Or alternatively the likes of Silva Sane and De Bruyne have made Stirling look good?

[idler]

They might make him look good Raven but bad players don't last long in a very good team these days.
John McGovern and John O'Hare won trophies and played loads of games for Brian Clough's teams. He picked them because they fitted his system and did exactly as they were told in his words allied with a great work rate.
These days all teams have upped their work rate and the ever age players get found out.

[DonnyOsmond]

Or alternatively the likes of Silva Sane and De Bruyne have made Stirling look good?

When he could easily be dropped for another player?

[dickos1]

Do you think guardiola with unlimited funds and the ability to sign almost anyone in world football would be picking Players that were only being made to look good by other players?
He consistently picks walker, Sterling, so I can’t have that they are spectacularly ordinary.

As for Steve’s question I’d definitely choose England wining the World Cup

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sterling hasn't looked out of place playing with players like David Silva, Sane, De Bruyne but yeah he wouldn't get in another countries team... Walker is also considered to be one of the best right backs in the world and then there's a few other lads that don't look out of place at the top level of the second best league in the world.

I’ve expounded on this many times before and the last two tournaments in particular have very much supported my thesis.

Yes, some English players appear to be able to cut it at the top of the club game. But then you have to ask yourself why they regularly look so abjectly poor in tournaments.

Seems simple to me. The top clubs can pick and choose more or less perfectly sized and shaped pegs for each of their holes. Or if the pegs aren’t perfect when signed, the coaches can work with them every day and hone them to be just what is required.

In a national side, the coach doesn’t have that luxury. He can’t go out an sign a player to fill a gap. He hasn’t got the luxury of time to hone a player to be just what is required. It requires the players to have the wit, flexibility and sophistication to adapt. And adapt very quickly because in tournaments, different requirements come at you rapidly. Different quality and type of opposition come at you with only days between them. And I’m convinced that our players are simply not capable of adapting quickly.

I remember watching the (bang average) Italy side that got to the final of Euro 2012. The semi against Getmany was a masterclass in fluidity. They were second best in nearly every position on paper. But they changed formation 5 or 6 times during the game as the dynamics of the game changed, and each time every player looked comfortable.

I’ve never seen that from an England tournament team recently. When they have to adapt and extemporise because the game is not going to plan, they look bewildered. Culminating in the excruciating inability to find a way through Iceland’s defence two years ago, and being reduced at the end to sticking Cahill up front and aiming balls in his general compass heading.

Until we produce players who are sophisticated enough to be comfortable switching formations on the fly, we will struggle. You saw it yesterday. Nigeria changed to 3-5-2 at half time to match England and we fell apart. No idea how to respond. I suspect there will have been much note taking by the coaches of our opponents in Russia.

And once again. I hope I’m proved wrong next month. But I don’t expect to be.

[richtherover]

Loved the world cup as a kid, probably because England won the first one I watched, with Rovers winning the old fourth division championship the same  year. Patriotic as I am I would choose a Donny title every time. RTID

[RedJ]

I'll be happy with quarter finals. Anything more is a bonus.

[BillyStubbsTears]

England have a relatively easy path to the QF if things go as expected. We have probably the third weakest of all the groups. In the 2nd round, we’d play a side from probably the second weakest. Then Germany or Brazil in the QFs...

Anything less than making the QFs would be a very poor showing. Anything more would be astonishing.

Look at it this way. If we don’t make the QFs, that means we’ve either failed to beat Tunisia and/or Panama, or we’ve lost to Poland, Colombia, Senegal or Japan.

If we make it past the QFs, we’ll have beaten one of the world’s top 10 sides in the KI stages of the WC for the first time since 1966.

[Cantley Rover]

Donny
I’m currently booking my summer holidays. I know I have to be back for a very important meeting on 15 Aug. I wouldn’t dream of making travel arrangements that would put my attendance at that meeting in jeopardy, because if I miss it, there’s a decent chance of people losing their jobs. And if I miss it, no amount of apologies will change the consequences.

It’s not f**king hard really is it? If you actually prioritise stuff and act responsibly.

The problem is Billy that footballers get so used to someone else doing everything for them, when it come to having to organise themselves they fail miserably.
It surprises me that they can manage to put their boots on the correct foot!! But maybe there is a physio or someone in the dressing room to do that for them as well.
As for us having some great players.........Sorry but Harry Kane is probably the only one.
Stone. Needs to realise he is a defender and not a ball playing midfielder.
Sterling. Cannot find the net when he plays in an England shirt and takes the wrong option far too many times.
Ali. Personally I can't see what all the fuss is about.

As for the choice of England winning the world cup or Rovers winning league 1. For me its a no brainer. Rovers every time. Besides it is the only reaistic choice. I probably have more chance of winning the Euromillions than England winning the world cup.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually THIS is a sobering thought.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/series/world-cup-all-time-xis

Not sure I agree with Viv Anderson’s choices but they are not that far off the money. Then compare that side to the Brazil and France ones. And that’s before you see the all time best XI of Getmany, Italy, Holland, Spain, Argentina...

Kind of emphasises how we have rarely been at the top table when it comes to producing top players. Our very best ones were OK, but not many of them were a match for the very best from other top countries. Look at that French side:
Platini
Zidane
Giresse
Trésor
Henry
Tigana
Bossis
Thuram

I’d say the one and only player we’ve ever produced who is of that standard in those positions is Bobby Moore. In every other case, France’s best player in those positions is better than ours.

Then you look at Brazil...

[RoversAlias]

Poland and Colombia are good sides. I think we should definitely be aiming for the Quarter Finals but I don't think it's a "very poor showing" if say we lose a narrow game in the 2nd Round to one of those two. Poland are one of the only teams who can boast a better striker than us in Lewandowski, and Colombia has experienced talent right through the team.

Undoubtedly the draw has, on paper, fallen kindly for us, but look how often the pre-tournament predictions don't pan out. Costa Rica going further than Uruguay, Italy and England when the last draw threw that group up? A penalty kick away from the semi-finals they were. Same for Ghana in 2010, and look at Korea and Turkey in 2002.

[selby]

  Apart from Brazil, I don't think there are many outstanding teams. Germany are much the same as are Spain, and as Spain and Brazil showed last time if you have an off day your out.
  Luck will play a part, playing to a system, and the players being in form on the day the most important. England need to play at a high tempo, like the first half yesterday, when Nigeria struggled to compete. But that is hard to keep up for three weeks, playing matches without a lot of time between them.
  Lots of the talk is about Sterling, who has been one of the seasons stand out players with the best team probably in Europe on their day, while Jamie Vardy who has scored 20 premiership goals in a poorer team plays second fiddle to Rashford and Lingard who are bit part players at Man Utd Rashford having a poor season after being sussed out, and will have to develop something else to his game.
  I would bench Lingard, play Sterling in his position, alongside Allie and bring in Vardy to run off Kane.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RA

Of course competitions never go exactly according to expectations. What I am doing is all that you reasonably can do at this stage - looking at how the draw would pan out if it DOES go according to expectation.

And yes Poland and Colombia would not be pushovers in R2. But it’s all relative. Finish runner-up in a different group (and we’ll do well to finish better than second in the group - we’ve only won 2 groups in the past 36 years) and we could have expected to face Spain, France, Germany, Argentina or Brazil in R2. So, as I said, RELATIVELY we have an easy run to the QFs. If we’ve got to the level where we expect to be underdogs against Poland or Colombia (neither of whom are stunningly strong sides) then that speaks volumes about England’s decline.

[ravenrover]

Do you think guardiola with unlimited funds and the ability to sign almost anyone in world football would be picking Players that were only being made to look good by other players?
He consistently picks walker, Sterling, so I can’t have that they are spectacularly ordinary.

As for Steve’s question I’d definitely choose England wining the World Cup

But he keeps giving Stones a go and what about the bloke last season was it Mangala at centre half?

[dickos1]

Stones has played very little this season and mangala he realised wasn’t good enough and has sent him on his way to two different clubs on loan

[RoversAlias]

  Apart from Brazil, I don't think there are many outstanding teams. Germany are much the same as are Spain, and as Spain and Brazil showed last time if you have an off day your out.
  Luck will play a part, playing to a system, and the players being in form on the day the most important. England need to play at a high tempo, like the first half yesterday, when Nigeria struggled to compete. But that is hard to keep up for three weeks, playing matches without a lot of time between them.
  Lots of the talk is about Sterling, who has been one of the seasons stand out players with the best team probably in Europe on their day, while Jamie Vardy who has scored 20 premiership goals in a poorer team plays second fiddle to Rashford and Lingard who are bit part players at Man Utd Rashford having a poor season after being sussed out, and will have to develop something else to his game.
  I would bench Lingard, play Sterling in his position, alongside Allie and bring in Vardy to run off Kane.

Vardy is a centre forward though, so he isn't behind Lingard in the team. Rashford hasn't been found out at all, when given the chance he generally impressed but Mourinho likes to play Lukaku on his own up front. Vardy is a good asset to have but I think he may be used as a regular impact substitute this summer. The only selection debate in attacking areas for me is whether you go with Lingard or Alli, or indeed both which he did yesterday.

And BST, I know where you're coming from, I was just offering my own thoughts on what we should be realistically hoping for. As I said before, Quarter Finals will be a good achievement but if we lose in the Last 16 to a good team, playing well then I'd be satisfied with that. It was the manner of the Iceland loss that really stung.

[MachoMadness]

While I do think it's in the interest of the tabloids to both unfairly hype and detract from the England team at the same time, it's hard for me to argue with BST when I think about it practically. Emotionally I'm buzzing for the world cup despite my better judgement, but my head looks at the Germany squad, sees the players that didn't make it that'd waltz into our first 11, and just despairs. This is the weakest England side we've seen in a while, no getting around that fact.

[RoversAlias]

I think it's stronger than the one we had at the last World Cup, but time will tell.

[dickos1]

While I do think it's in the interest of the tabloids to both unfairly hype and detract from the England team at the same time, it's hard for me to argue with BST when I think about it practically. Emotionally I'm buzzing for the world cup despite my better judgement, but my head looks at the Germany squad, sees the players that didn't make it that'd waltz into our first 11, and just despairs. This is the weakest England side we've seen in a while, no getting around that fact.

While I do think it's in the interest of the tabloids to both unfairly hype and detract from the England team at the same time, it's hard for me to argue with BST when I think about it practically. Emotionally I'm buzzing for the world cup despite my better judgement, but my head looks at the Germany squad, sees the players that didn't make it that'd waltz into our first 11, and just despairs. This is the weakest England side we've seen in a while, no getting around that fact.

Yeah but they’re picking players like ozul ahead of the ones missing out

[Bentley Bullet]

The World Cup used to be the world stage for football's greatest show on earth. Nowadays though I doubt even the winners would be good enough for a top 5 place in the Premiership, never mind England.

For that reason, I reckon a lot of us expect too much when we see England play. The team have gone from being the best in the world in 1966 to being probably not even among the best 5 teams in England now!

[drfchound]

Poland and Colombia are good sides. I think we should definitely be aiming for the Quarter Finals but I don't think it's a "very poor showing" if say we lose a narrow game in the 2nd Round to one of those two. Poland are one of the only teams who can boast a better striker than us in Lewandowski, and Colombia has experienced talent right through the team.

Undoubtedly the draw has, on paper, fallen kindly for us, but look how often the pre-tournament predictions don't pan out. Costa Rica going further than Uruguay, Italy and England when the last draw threw that group up? A penalty kick away from the semi-finals they were. Same for Ghana in 2010, and look at Korea and Turkey in 2002.

Good point.

I think where England have messed up a number of times is by not winning the group - it certainly happened in 1998, 2004, 2010 and 2016, which is just as bad as constantly losing on penalties.

2004 is the one that springs to mind as a massive missed opportunity. Had it not been for a mad final few minutes against France in the opening game, it could have been Greece in the QFs, Czech Republic in the semis and a penalty shoot-out defeat in the final.

Lots of ifs in there.

[RoversAlias]

What ifs everywhere ey. That Zidane comeback in 2004 will stay with me forever mind. We absolutely should've gone much further at one of the three tournaments Sven was in charge for.  Our team was near enough complete in terms of balanced quality throughout the side.