Yorkshire cricket

[selby]

 On a more important subject, how good was that win today against Essex.
  Five international players missing, and that was one of the best team efforts I have seen for a long time. Off to a bad  start and ended up with 259 and then a controlled bowling display from all the bowlers, BRILLIANT.

[silent majority]

It was excellent TV viewing I thought. How good was Patterson?

[selby]

  One of them annoying bowlers to face SM. Line and length,  and because of his height gets that little bit of extra bounce.
   Bresnen is very underrated as a cricketer, both with bat and ball, and both very rarely have a bad game. I enjoyed every minute after the first hour, Ballance has been hung out to dry by the southern based  commentators on TV, and should still be in and around the England side.
  We will need to get off to a better start against Hampshire in the semifinal however.
  I got that engrossed that I missed a badly placed short on my shares, an expensive but somehow enjoyable day, Ah well.

[NickDRFC]

  One of them annoying bowlers to face SM. Line and length,  and because of his height gets that little bit of extra bounce.
   Bresnen is very underrated as a cricketer, both with bat and ball, and both very rarely have a bad game. I enjoyed every minute after the first hour, Ballance has been hung out to dry by the southern based  commentators on TV, and should still be in and around the England side.
  We will need to get off to a better start against Hampshire in the semifinal however.
  I got that engrossed that I missed a badly placed short on my shares, an expensive but somehow enjoyable day, Ah well.

I’m as big a Yorkshire fan as they come and will defend our players to the hilt but there’s no way he should still be in and around the England side. He was recalled when he shouldn’t have been because he’s mates with Root, but he is still continually exposed technically at Test level and I’ve not seen anything to suggest he should be close to getting his place back. If I was picking the side he would be well down the pecking order. Good enough at county level though so I’m happy he’s with us.

Great result yesterday, our top order looks a bit weak without Bairstow and Willey, but hopefully we can take the momentum into the semi and go all the way. Does anyone know when the final is and whether our England contingent would be available? Would be a shame for some of the younger lads to miss out but Willey has been phenomenal in this competition and Bairstow is surely one of the best one day batsmen in the world right now.

[selby]

  Billy when he was recalled he was the top run scorer in county cricket, there was nobody else about, and there still isn't.
  He has only played against the top bowling attacks, and has still averaged about the same as players who  have replaced him against lesser attacks.
  I would rather him play for Yorkshire anyway. He joins a long list of Yorkshire players who have been treated poorly by England, Rashid, Schofield,Plunket, Moxon, even Truman,  Close, Hampshire,and Illingworth.  some discarded prematurely for lesser players, carted all over the world and used as drinks waiters, and in Moxons case picked at 19 yrs old, got injured and was brought in years later to face Thompson and Lillee in their pomp and labeled a failure.

[NickDRFC]

Peter, he was recalled twice. The first time, he averaged less than 20 against the attacks of Pakistan and Bangladesh - the former hasn't had a top bowling attack since the nineties and the latter has never had a top bowling attack. He had been sussed out by test attacks and didn't look cut out for it.

The second time, admittedly he scored a ton of runs at county level, but still it seemed foolish to recall him - I don't remember many, if any, pundits saying he would be successful with his return. And so it proved.

Not everything has to be a hard luck story - he's just not cut out for the top level despite a number of chances to prove himself there.

[selby]

  Neither are any of the batsmen picked in his place since. And they do not average 37 in test matches.

[GazLaz]

  Neither are any of the batsmen picked in his place since. And they do not average 37 in test matches.

Ballance averages 37 because he started off very well. I bet his average over the last 50% of test matches he’s played is a lot lower. He got exposed and that’s the end for him.

[NickDRFC]

Gaz, bang on. He averaged 44 in his first 15 test matches, just less than 20 after his first recall in 6 tests and 21 in 2 matches his second recall. He was found out and doesn't deserve a place in the test team.

Selby, just because those that have replaced him haven't pulled up any trees doesn't mean that he should be recalled again. I'd much prefer they tried somebody new. But for the record, since Ballance was last dropped in July 2017, the following batsmen have been picked for the first time or recalled in a position where Ballance could have played:

Tom Westley - averaged 24
Dawid Malan - averages 29
James Vince - averaged 31
Jos Buttler - averages 81

Other than Buttler, none could really be considered a success, but all have still been demonstrably better than Ballance was for the last 8 tests.

[hoolahoop]

Weighing in here ( against my better judgement ) but I can see the merits of selecting Ballance again what is he 29/30 year old , left hander plus of course he bowls well enough if needed. He is just maturing and plainly has theability . Perhaps I'm a tad biased and think that England should pick everyone that's eligible and plays County cricket for Yorkshire. There's definitely a lot more in him yet and besides he is playing currently in a strong successful team , that in itself is a massivebonus. Averaging 55 in one day and 44 in County cricket should imho secure him a place to permanently " exclude  " him from the England team would be a mistake.

I realise that test cricket is that much tougher both mentally and of course because of the quality of opposition but there are loads of players who have failed to impress on their first spells with the 1st team and gone on to be top drawer players.

As for Yorkshire , we need that win against Hampshire next week just to get above the Wa**ers over the hill and to start climbing up the league oh and plenty of bonus points would be nice.

[NickDRFC]

Not sure if you have Ballance confused with someone else but I don’t think he’s ever taken a wicket, in fact I can’t recall ever even seeing him bowl.

I’d take a limited overs cup win and a mid table championship finish this year, we’ve a lot of young players (and plenty of the senior ones nabbed by England) so I don’t think expectations should be too high.

[GazLaz]

Weighing in here ( against my better judgement ) but I can see the merits of selecting Ballance again what is he 29/30 year old , left hander plus of course he bowls well enough if needed. He is just maturing and plainly has theability . Perhaps I'm a tad biased and think that England should pick everyone that's eligible and plays County cricket for Yorkshire. There's definitely a lot more in him yet and besides he is playing currently in a strong successful team , that in itself is a massivebonus. Averaging 55 in one day and 44 in County cricket should imho secure him a place to permanently " exclude  " him from the England team would be a mistake.

I realise that test cricket is that much tougher both mentally and of course because of the quality of opposition but there are loads of players who have failed to impress on their first spells with the 1st team and gone on to be top drawer players.

As for Yorkshire , we need that win against Hampshire next week just to get above the Wa**ers over the hill and to start climbing up the league oh and plenty of bonus points would be nice.

There’s no comparison between test cricket and county cricket. It doesn’t prepare players in any way for the toughest tests. That’s a different debate though.

[hoolahoop]

Nick he can bowl but not at test match level and I'm not mixing him up - he bowls leg break perhaps if he could develop as an all rounder it would make him more versatile . Currently we have a decent batsman and slip fielder   As long as we get a 4th/5th place I too will be happy . The future of Yorkshire cricket looks good and as I said before as long as the white rose crushes the red one ...That's me happy.

[hoolahoop]

Weighing in here ( against my better judgement ) but I can see the merits of selecting Ballance again what is he 29/30 year old , left hander plus of course he bowls well enough if needed. He is just maturing and plainly has theability . Perhaps I'm a tad biased and think that England should pick everyone that's eligible and plays County cricket for Yorkshire. There's definitely a lot more in him yet and besides he is playing currently in a strong successful team , that in itself is a massivebonus. Averaging 55 in one day and 44 in County cricket should imho secure him a place to permanently " exclude  " him from the England team would be a mistake.

I realise that test cricket is that much tougher both mentally and of course because of the quality of opposition but there are loads of players who have failed to impress on their first spells with the 1st team and gone on to be top drawer players.

As for Yorkshire , we need that win against Hampshire next week just to get above the Wa**ers over the hill and to start climbing up the league oh and plenty of bonus points would be nice.

There’s no comparison between test cricket and county cricket. It doesn’t prepare players in any way for the toughest tests. That’s a different debate though.

That was exactly my point Gaz at least I hope it read that way

" I realise that test cricket is that much tougher both mentally and of course because of the quality of opposition "

[NickDRFC]

Nick he can bowl but not at test match level and I'm not mixing him up - he bowls leg break perhaps if he could develop as an all rounder it would make him more versatile . Currently we have a decent batsman and slip fielder   As long as we get a 4th/5th place I too will be happy . The future of Yorkshire cricket looks good and as I said before as long as the white rose crushes the red one ...That's me happy.

Just looked up his record and still disagree that he can bowl, but perhaps you've seen something in the 25 odd wicketless overs he's bowled over his entire career to justify saying he can bowl a bit!

[hoolahoop]

Nick he can bowl but not at test match level and I'm not mixing him up - he bowls leg break perhaps if he could develop as an all rounder it would make him more versatile . Currently we have a decent batsman and slip fielder   As long as we get a 4th/5th place I too will be happy . The future of Yorkshire cricket looks good and as I said before as long as the white rose crushes the red one ...That's me happy.

Just looked up his record and still disagree that he can bowl, but perhaps you've seen something in the 25 odd wicketless overs he's bowled over his entire career to justify saying he can bowl a bit!

Ffs all I said was that he could develop that part of his game - I'm not suggesting he bowls for either England or Yorkshire for that matter. However he thinks he can bowl and I'm suggesting he might develop that part of his game . It's not enough just to be a "specialist" anymore .

[NickDRFC]

I didn't mean to agitate you, I just think you were wrong when you said "plus of course he bowls well enough if needed" and "he can bowl but not at test match level" given he has never taken a professional wicket.

If you're now saying it's just "he thinks he can bowl" and could/should develop that, I'm afraid disagree with that as well - I agree that there is more value now placed on a player with more strings to their bow (Bess, for example, probably wouldn't have made his debut if his batting and fielding weren't as capable as they are), but Ballance must be late 20s/early 30s and if there was any real bowling ability there it would have been explored years ago. As it is, he's better off concentrating on his batting and scoring as many runs as he can for Yorkshire.

[selby]

  Amen to that Nick because England have players like Compton and Mallan.

[NickDRFC]

  Amen to that Nick because England have players like Compton and Mallan.

Compton’s not played for England in over 2 years so you’ll have to help me out a little bit to let me know what point you’re actually trying to make.

[selby]

 Nick , didn't I say I would rather him play for Yorkshire in an earlier post, I am not that bothered about England at all.
  They will always bend over backwards for some players, and others get hung out to dry. The way they have used players like Rashid, and played spinners who have got about 10 wickets make the mind boggle.

[selby]

  Nick, a genuine question I would be interested to know your answer.
  How many times in your lifetime have England picked the best test squad available? Vaughan's was probably the last, and then they messed about with the stumper, and there were very few before, Illingworth having a war with the selectors as a manager and as captain, Close the same.

[NickDRFC]

  Nick, a genuine question I would be interested to know your answer.
  How many times in your lifetime have England picked the best test squad available? Vaughan's was probably the last, and then they messed about with the stumper, and there were very few before, Illingworth having a war with the selectors as a manager and as captain, Close the same.

It’s all subjective though isn’t it? I’ve said, and so has GazLaz, that Ballance is not good enough, and when he was recalled I disagreed with it, whereas you and hoolahoop probably thought he deserved it and it was the right choice. I too think Rashid should have been given a chance in tests but I don’t think he’s been hung out to dry - he’s been a mainstay of the one day team for years so it’s not like he’s blacklisted by the selectors, there must be a reason he wasn’t really considered for tests, be it attitude, mentality, training performance or whatever.

I’ve been following cricket for about 25 years now so I’m too young to remember Illingworth or Close, and although I frequently disagree with selectors I don’t think there’s an underlying bias to it, and if there is I certainly don’t think it’s anti-Yorkshire judging by how many of our players have been picked even when I’m not necessarily convinced they deserve to be.

[selby]

W which is all we can expectell it was just too much of an ask for such a depleted squad to win the semi final against Hampshire.
  It's a shame when our England players are in such good form that fixtures clash, robbing us of our best players.
   The youngsters who did step in gave it a go, which is as much as we can ask.

[hoolahoop]

That will always be the " rub " when you have players selected for the national side. However as you said this always gives the more inexperienced players a chance to gain more experience ( that ok Nick - nothing contentious there before I crack on ? ) . Short term sometimes we suffer but in the medium/ long term we end up with player after player being called up for England. 

I remember too the Boycott era where we also had those selector/ player arguments . I think it's because we tend to call a spade a spade - Close and Boycott were definitely garrulous  chips off the same block.

[drfchound]

.........along with Trueman and Illingworth.

[NickDRFC]

That will always be the " rub " when you have players selected for the national side. However as you said this always gives the more inexperienced players a chance to gain more experience ( that ok Nick - nothing contentious there before I crack on ? ) . Short term sometimes we suffer but in the medium/ long term we end up with player after player being called up for England. 

I remember too the Boycott era where we also had those selector/ player arguments . I think it's because we tend to call a spade a spade - Close and Boycott were definitely garrulous  chips off the same block.

What puzzles me is that, even when our bowlers were getting carted around the park against Hampshire, we didn't bring on someone who bowls well enough if needed? 

Seriously, it was a good effort by our players to get that far - almost half of England's best ever ODI team is made up of our players, including the most in-form one day batsman in the world (incidentally, since Bairstow was promoted to open for the ODI team in September 17, he has averaged 67 including 6 centuries (and 4 in his last 6 innings) - incredible really). A bit ironic as well that whilst we were hampered by the England selections it was an England cast-off that inflicted most of the damage.

As you say though it's an opportunity for the youngsters to come through - hopefully Coad can continue to build on the promise that he showed last year, and Tattersall & Fisher build on their promising appearances so far this year.