Big rally in London today...

[BillyStubbsTears]

...surprised that Corbyn wasn't thumping the tub there. Given that 90% of his members and 70% of Labour voters in recent polls want Brexit reversed.

I wonder why he's not lending his wonderful campaigning skills to this campaign?

[hoolahoop]

Estimates ranging from some 500-700, 000 there today ......looking like his absense could be a major miscalculation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

He was in Geneva, re-living past glories.

 https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1053585247131066368

Now, don't get me wrong. His work in getting Pinochet extradited to face justice was excellent.

But that was then. This is now. Now, Britain is facing it's biggest crisis since WWII. The Labour party membership and voters are overwhelmingly anti-Brexit. Corbyn won the leadership election pledging that the membership would drive policy (which I personally think is stupid, but that's not the point. It's HIS stated philosophy.)

So why is it that everyone there's anti-Brexit leadership required, Corbyn vanishes from the scene and turns up cuddled up in some nice safe space where he doesn't have to address this?



There's a theme here.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's Boris and Heathrow all over again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, the BBC, in its report on the London rally with nearly 3/4m there, is at pains to point out that Farage had a rally in Harrogate supporting Brexit. There were about 1000 there.

It's exactly like reporting on a Man Utd match, and finishing it of by saying Mexborough Main St also had a game today.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way. That Harrogate Rally.

https://mobile.twitter.com/skynews/status/1053662098574716929

God. All. f**king. Mighty.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way. The delicious irony of this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1053665653280911360?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1053665653280911360&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Flive-brexit-protest-to-be-biggest-in-a-decade-11530243

That's right.

That's you being lectured to about elitists manipulating you.

That's right.

That's the son of the Editor of The Times. Who went to Eton and Oxford. (He was Chairman of the Conservative Students Association at the latter.)

He then went to work in the City of London and now runs a £multi-billion hedge fund. As well as doing what is presumably a full time job as an MP.

He lives in the Grade II listed Gournay Court manor, with his wife, Helena Anne Beatrix Wentworth Fitzwilliam de Chair, the daughter of Somerset de Chair and Lady Julia Tadgell.

They got married in Canterbury Cathedral. As you do. And their combined wealth is estimated at £100m.

Oh aye. And several reports have shown that Rees-Mogg's hedge fund stands to make a fortune from market changes when the UK leaves the EU.

But go on. Fill your boots with his comments about how The Elite are deceiving you...

[Akinfenwa]

It's been an interesting spectacle this.

We've heard a great deal over previous three years how Corbyn is supposed to be leading a party, not some self-indulgent, sanctimonious, out-of-touch protest movement.

We've also heard that the size of crowds at political rallies are irrelevant if you're only preaching to the converted. Don't bother, it's just a show of moral superiority and complete waste of time.

We've heard the important point that the party membership make up only 1.2% of the total electorate and are not representative of it. Don't listen to them, it is electoral suicide.

Now we're hearing that Corbyn should be doing exactly the opposite from those very same critics, the only difference now being that it suits a dead-end political cause that they happen to passionately believe in (or so they say). You couldn't make it up.

Thankfully, the man at least seems to possess some degree of political judgement on this matter.

[wilts rover]

...surprised that Corbyn wasn't thumping the tub there. Given that 90% of his members and 70% of Labour voters in recent polls want Brexit reversed.

I wonder why he's not lending his wonderful campaigning skills to this campaign?

There was an opion poll recently that showed the Tories with a slight lead and breakdown of why that was as regards Leave and Remain voters. I mentioned it here:
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=267425.60

but I think it's worthwhile posting the results in full:
2016 Remainers:

LAB: 53% (+5)
CON: 23% (+1)
LDM: 15% (-4)
GRN: 3% (=)
UKIP: 0% (=)

2016 Leavers:
CON: 66% (+4)
LAB: 17% (-5)
UKIP: 10% (+1)
LDM: 3% (=)
GRN: 1% (+1)

Fieldwork 30-1 Oct. Changes w/ 24-25 Sep.

There is Corbyn's problem. Over half the people who voted Remain will vote Labour. But less than 1 in 5 who voted Leave will. Corbyn doesn't need support from people who like the EU - he needs support from those who dont.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1048223569883410432

[BillyStubbsTears]

Akinfenwa.

I'm throwing back Corbyn's philosophy at him.

I DON'T believe that policy should be decided by the membership. That way lies idelogical madness.

BUT.

Corbyn DOES. Or at least claims he does. So, if that's his stance, why has he manoeuvred for 2 years to prevent his membership having its say at Conference and determining party policy.

He can't have it both ways. Or maybe you're saying that he CAN. Maybe he should support the primacy of the membership when it suits him. Is THAT what you are saying?

Wilts.

Yes. Of course it's a problem for Labour. Exacerbated by the fact that in the same polls, many people who supported Remain AND are Labour supporters don't support Labour's policy on Brexit.

I've said for 2 years that Corbyn was being deceitful in this topic. He has wooed the (predominantly)  metropolitan and Brexit-hating membership with hints that he's one of them. Whilst being Brexit-supporting enough to neutralise the Red UKIP threat. But that only works while you're in Opposition. If he's to get into power, he'll have to choose one or the other. His history and his current practice says he'll side with the tiny minority.

Which is a rather big problem for Labour.

Corbyn played that brilliantly in 2017. He convinced enough of both sides that he was on their side to achieve a remarkable GE result.

But it was a deception. He CANNOT be on both their sides. Very soon, he has to choose whether he's in the side of the vast majority of his party. Or still governed by his Bennite past. And then we're in very different territory.

[hoolahoop]

Meanwhile, the BBC, in its report on the London rally with nearly 3/4m there, is at pains to point out that Farage had a rally in Harrogate supporting Brexit. There were about 1000 there.

It's exactly like reporting on a Man Utd match, and finishing it of by saying Mexborough Main St also had a game today.

Yes it was another one of those " in the interests of balance " BBC MOMENTS - to show Farage in a pub getting a pint of ' EU out ' ale. Typical from our State broadcaster - surprised their cameras were anywhere in the vacinity when " thousands marched to Parliament for a 2nd Referendum " what bollox this was ! Where were the speeches ? More to the point where were Labour and their front benches ?

[Bentley Bullet]

Since when did Mexborough Main St oppose Man Utd?

[wing commander]

    People can March in London all they want,If you've been to London recently you will know there is a march every weekend for one thing or another..However it's not going to put a ounce of pressure on anybody without significant Political pressure to back it up..

    A few weeks ago on the Corbyn conference speech thread I made the point that the problem was that nobody really had much of a clue what Labours policy on Brexit was, or what they actually stood for..They have a shadow brexit minister but the reality is nobody really knows who he is never mind what Labours actual policy's are..

    Once again as soon as there comes a time when they have chance to nail there colours to the mast with this March and give the public an idea what they actually stand for,they are nowhere to be seen and as per normal when the kitchen gets hot Corbyn finds an excuse to toddle off out of the way..This should be about whats best for the UK now...He is very happy to stand up on numerous times to attack May in the commons and say "If the government cant stand up and sort it out,then make way for a party that can"
 
   They are just words aimed at scoring cheap Political points,In reality, he gives nobody whose vote can be swayed one way or another a ounce of confidence that he can because I'm not sure he knows himself..Which is probably why the polls suggest that one of the most unpopular goverments in history is still seen as a better bet than him...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co

If you don't know who Labour's Shadow Brexit-supporting Secretary is then you haven't really been paying attention.

He's actually been very prominent in pulling Corbyn kicking and screaming towards a reasonable stance where Labour would effectively keep is in the CU and keep us as close as possible to the SM.

Which is the only solution that enables us to preserve the GFA, satisfy the EU and not wreck the economy.

It won't satisfy the flat-earthers who want us out and as far away from the EU as possible, but they only tot up to about 25% of the population, so frankly, who cares.

The big question is whether Corbyn would actually stomach a deal that effectively did keep us very close to the EU when he's spent his entire career being Benn's wingman the successor on the task of getting us out.

[wing commander]

  I don't agree with you Billy on this one..You know who he is because you are passionate about your Labour politics and even though I don't agree with you on a lot of it Kudos to you for that..

  I've voted both Labour and Tory in my time and can be swayed one way or another but if you got 100 people like me and asked them what Labours firm policy was on brexit,just how many can you put your hand on your heart and say could tell you ???

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co

Kier Starmer has been on Newsnight and the Andrew Marr programme over the past 3 days, setting out his case as Shadow Brexit-supporting Secretary.

Short of coming round to your house and giving you a one to one over tea and HobNobs, I'm not sure what more he could be doing to put his case to you.

If folk aren't engaging with that, that's not really the politicians' fault. But it DOES raise the issue about whether the electorate is really engaged enough to be taking decisions like this.

[Axholme Lion]

Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...

[wing commander]

   Billy,That's one point I would agree with you with,however the Labour party are just not united on this else he and Corbyn would be singing the same tune..Corbyn isn't really saying anything is he??

However for the last two days there has been a poll being retweeted all over twitter.Tens of thousands have voted and this is the current state of play...


45%Voted Leave, Now Leave


44%Voted Remain, Now Remain


05%Voted Leave, Now Remain


06%Voted Remain, Now Leave

  This poll would suggest even with the current state of play fundamentally nothing has really changed peoples opinion..

[IDM]

Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...

What’s democratic about having a vote for something when no one knows what the f**k they are voting for, with no chance of a further vote later on when the reality isn’t what they thought it was?

[Axholme Lion]

Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...

What’s democratic about having a vote for something when no one knows what the f**k they are voting for, with no chance of a further vote later on when the reality isn’t what they thought it was?

OF COURSE WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR!
Remain in the EUSSR or leave. Leave won the vote. End of!

[IDM]

But my point is no one knew then what “leave the EU” means..

There is a good chance that had the government had an outline plan for leaving, agreed with the rest of the EU, in place for the referendum that Leave may have had a bigger majority.. 

There’s no need to shout either..

The brexit vote was like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat....

that isn’t there..!

[GazLaz]

Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...

What’s democratic about having a vote for something when no one knows what the f**k they are voting for, with no chance of a further vote later on when the reality isn’t what they thought it was?

OF COURSE WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR!
Remain in the EUSSR or leave. Leave won the vote. End of!

It was a black and white vote on an extremely multi coloured situation.

[RedJ]

Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...

Farage himself said he would keep agitating for another vote if he lost. Would he have been an anti-democracy cry baby then?

[Bentley Bullet]

Farage would have continued to fight against the status quo, had he lost the vote. That is different to the demands for a new vote before the original vote has even been implemented!

[BillyStubbsTears]

On the list of things not to say if you don't want to appear to be incapable of talking Brexit stuff  like a functioning grown up, EUSSR comes about 3rd.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

My word you do a fine line in logical deconstruction of meaning.

Of course you COULD argue that in Remain had won, the decision of the referendum (to remain) WOUKD have been put into effect, so Farage WOULD have been asking to have a vote to overturn an action. And since he was asking for a second vote before the first one even happened then...

But to pull this out of the semantic quagmire from which nothing good ever emerges, it's worth focussing on WHY Farage said he would demand a second referendum.

He said it was because the first one had been unfair because the Govt had funded leaflets supporting Remain. He was wrong on that, legally. It was official Govt policy to support Remain and those leaflets were a legitimate Govt expense.

What WASN'T legal, was what the Leave campaign did. Which was:

To massively overspend the amount they were allowed to spend on campaigning.

To set up fictitious cover companies to hide this.

To use that money to fund illegal social media targeting of vulnerable voters.

To pour in millions of pounds from the Kremlin to cover the Leave campaign costs.

All those things have been verified since the vote.

Leave broke not only the moral code in their approach to the campaign. They broke the law and arguably committed treason.

So. How can Farage possibly not support a second vote?

Oh aye. I forgot. It's cos he's a devious lying Kitson who thinks scruples are some type of kettle chip.

[Bentley Bullet]

Aye, the squeaky clean remain side never cheated by overspending on the referendum did they? ....And, Osbourne never lied about a punishment budget and other threats such as tax increases and pension cuts if we voted to leave, did he?

Oh, and Cameron's threat of World War 3 wasn't ever so slightly a bit of a porky, was it?

[selby]

  You can bet the predictions of a punishment budget, and tax increases will come about if Corbyn ever wins an election.

[IDM]

Neither side was squeaky clean BB, my issue wasn’t a leave/remain thing, just simply a total lack of clarity..

More than 2 years down the line and we still don’t know what status the EU members of my household will be in..

So for me it is personal, it’s nowt about politics, money, trade and which set of laws we follow, it’s about what happens to my loved ones..

If that makes me a bleating remoaner to some folks, then I couldn’t give a flying f**k..

[GazLaz]

  You can bet the predictions of a punishment budget, and tax increases will come about if Corbyn ever wins an election.

The markets will go into meltdown if Jezza gets in. Will play havoc with peoples pension funds!