Big rally in London today...

[BillyStubbsTears]

*Weary sigh cos I really have lost count of how many times we've been on this path now*

No BB. The Remain side didn't overspend. Nor did they illegally accept money from a hostile foreign power to fund their campaign. Nor did they illegally set up fictitious cover companies to hide their criminality. Nor did they use that money to fund a criminal organisation which illegally planted code into people's social media accounts to identify them as not very politically savvy and shit scared of immigrants, so they could be bombarded with lies in the last week of the campaign.

As for your other points, yes Osborne over played his hand but that wasn't a lie. He was illustrating a point that a Leave vote would hit the national finances very hard.

It has.

If we were going to stick to the original Austerity plan to balance the Govt's books by 2020, there WOULD have had to be swingeing spending cuts and tax rises.

Hammond has taken a different path. He's delayed the date when we will balance the books to 2025. Which means an extra 5 years of below average spending rises or delayed tax cuts. Osborne was stupid in not pointing out that there was an alternative to IMMEDIATE cuts in the scale he said, but the baseline fact that a Leave vote would hammer the public finances was 100% correct and has been proven to be so. The public finances are in a shocking state and it's going to take us a lot more pain to sort them out. Because of the Leave vote.

Equating Osborne's comments with the barefaced lies about the £350m/week, or Turkey joining the EU is immature at best, deliberately blowing smoke into the debate at worst.

It's not a cunning scheme to deceive you BB. It's all fact. One side DID engage in criminal (possibly treasonous) behaviour, lie through their f**king teeth and treat people like idiots. The other didn't.

[Draytonian III]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/david-cameron/news/91572/official-eu-remain-campaign


BST, Cameron and Osborne lied through and through right up to and including the bitter end when they resigned.

[IDM]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

[Akinfenwa]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

[IDM]

The serious point is brexit is f**ked up.. even those who voted leave won’t get what they want, probably..

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

There's no talking to you when you get in this mood is there?

Those funds you refer to were imposed for inadequate paperwork. That's sloppy and unprofessional but there was no indication of any criminal overspending.

Whereas...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-44856992

In the lying, you're clearly just going to assert that both sides were as bad as each other without actually addressing the facts so it's probably pointless to go round this hamster wheel again. 

It'd be good if you'd point out where Cameron said that Brexit would lead to WWIII though.

[RedJ]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?

[Akinfenwa]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?

The coach made it clear before the vote that it's a once per season decision and will go with whatever the players choose.

If you wanted the other guy and think the new captain is a bell-end, then I suppose it's tough luck.

[Bentley Bullet]

So failing to submit correct spending returns isn't an indication of overspending?

https://youtu.be/vsgcQFhBJXQ
"In the last century, twice we had an enormous bloodbath between our nations"
Is he referring to WW's 1 and 2, and suggesting the possibility of a WW3 in this interview?

[Bentley Bullet]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?

Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!

[Boomstick]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?

Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!

Perfect analogy !

[IDM]

No analogy makes sense where there is a chance to reverse a bad decision sometime later..

Even the Americans can vote trump out at the end of next year.

Leave won the brexit referendum - but with that being a one chance vote then surely even the hardened leavers can understand it makes sense to have had a clear understanding of what you were actually voting for.?

In a general election if the subsequent government fails to deliver the manifesto they got in with, they can be voted out later..

Can we do that with brexit.? Are the leavers going to be content with the “deal” when we eventually get one.?

Having a vote and respecting the outcome is one thing, voting for blind uncertainty is another.!

[RedJ]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?

Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!

Perfect analogy !

Is it though? cos people were just guessing that McCann would be a disaster based on next to f**k all. Damage is ALREADY BEING DONE to our economy yet people seem to think it's just going to be fine?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I just keep asking the question - why do Brexit-supporting supporters think the economic outcome won't be disastrous?

Never once heard a response that is based on anything but hope.

It truly is like a fundamentalist religion. You can put any information you want in front of them. Lies. Criminality. Treason. The already disastrous economic effects which have lost us £60-100bn since the vote. The consensus of economic opinion that you can probably multiply that loss by 5-10 fold over the next decade.

None of it makes any difference. Just like you wouldn't convince a religious fundamentalist to question their faith by arguing logically and from an evidential basis, so you cannot argue with the majority of Brexit-supporting supporters.

It's truly terrifying if you stop and think.of the implications.

[Glyn_Wigley]

So failing to submit correct spending returns isn't an indication of overspending?

https://youtu.be/vsgcQFhBJXQ
"In the last century, twice we had an enormous bloodbath between our nations"
Is he referring to WW's 1 and 2, and suggesting the possibility of a WW3 in this interview?

I can't see that link, so can you confirm that he does he threaten WW3 or not, like you say he did?

Oh, and Cameron's threat of World War 3 wasn't ever so slightly a bit of a porky, was it?

because it sounds from your description it that he doesn't.

[Boomstick]

If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.

And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..

But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.

What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?

Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!

Perfect analogy !

Is it though? cos people were just guessing that McCann would be a disaster based on next to f**k all. Damage is ALREADY BEING DONE to our economy yet people seem to think it's just going to be fine?

Ferguson resigned - short term damage.
McCann appointed - long term gain.

I'd like to see proof and actual figures, and specifically how it impacts each household.
Because I dare say remoaners are grossly eggagerating it, not for economic reasons. But for ideological reasons.
But they haven't the spine to admit it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And by the way. What length of time would you consider to be "short term" for us to endure the pain of Brexit?
See, the very most optimistic Brexit-supporters reckon it'll be a decade before we see any economic benefits. By which time, if we've left with no deal, we'll have taken a bit of between £0.5-1trn to the economy. 

Oh aye. And those optimistic Brexit-supporters aren't basing their predictions of eventual benefit on hard analysis. They are basing it on...well it'll be reyt.

Here's one that perplexes me though. Why on earth do you think folk are lying or exaggerating these effects? Do you think that's what everyone does? Do you reckon some people don't consider facts and weigh them up before coming to conclusions?

[Boomstick]

What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?

I'd like to see proof of how and why it has impacted each individual household.
Because personally I cant say I have been affected at all.
I'm just looking forward to the future long term gain as a individual sovereign country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Every individual household? All 26million of them?

I don't think you quite get how this works do you?

Individual households have individual circumstances.

Some might get better jobs. Some might get worse jobs. Some might inherit money. Some might get serious illnesses.

What you do (if you're interested in the country as a whole, rather than nothing beyond your own front door) is to look at the average effect.

The IFS have already said that, because of the drastically reduced economic performance since the Vote, and the increase in inflation, we've lost about £1000 per household compared to where we'd expected to be by now before the vote.

Maybe you don't feel that as a LOSS. It's more a reduction in the natural level of income increase that we expect to see as the economy grows.

What's happened to us in the UK since the vote (and we are the only country in the developed world to have this happen) is that our economic growth has drastically fallen.

You might not feel that immediately. But the effect grows year on year. If our economic production grows at 1% less every year than that of the French or the Germans or the Dutch or the Canadians or the Americans, you'll not really notice it after a year. After 10 years though (and even the most optimistic Brexit-supporters are saying it'll be ten years before we see benefits) we'd be horrifying amounts poorer than them. Because the effect adds up year on year.

You don't seem overly concerned by that. I'm f**king furious that we are choosing to make ourselves poorer, and the ones who have chosen that for us will not even look at the facts in front of them b

[Donnywolf]

I am no economist but with the £ losing around 20% of its value against the Euro and a similar amount v the Dollar I conclude (see my first 4 words) that you personally must have been affected - perhaps indirectly through price rises - or through depleted Public Services IF they have been cut due to "the money" being spent elsewhere by the Government.

.... and surely if you have been to the Eurozone or USA since we had the Referendum you will have paid around 20% more for any goods and services - though as a non economist I daresay others will find that a bit simplistic

[bobjimwilly]

What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?

I'd like to see proof of how and why it has impacted each individual household.
Because personally I cant say I have been affected at all.
I'm just looking forward to the future long term gain as a individual sovereign country.

It baffles me that Brexiteers want proof why we should remain? Surely, before you make any decision in life, you look at the pro's and con's of changing something BEFORE changing it, you don't change something, then weight up the pro's and con's. PLUS once we leave, there is no going back!

If your a sane individual you wouldn't buy a car without inspecting it or at least looking at it first - the paperwork etc.
The electorate was never giving that opportunity in 2016 - in fact we were lied to dozens of times, and now we are told by Farage etc that the NHS won't be getting £350 million a week etc, yet Brexiteers still dismiss everything and say "f**k it, at least we'll have our sovereignty back" - WE WON'T! We'll have less power in the world, less of a voice, and less influence on global decisions!

Boomstick - you can't comment on how Brexit has affected you yet, as we're still part of the EU!

[MachoMadness]

It truly is like a fundamentalist religion. You can put any information you want in front of them. Lies. Criminality. Treason. The already disastrous economic effects which have lost us £60-100bn since the vote. The consensus of economic opinion that you can probably multiply that loss by 5-10 fold over the next decade.

There's literally a photograph of Farage pointing to a graph showing the collapsing pound on the night of the vote with a shit-eating grin on his face. Photo evidence of him shorting the pound and being delighted it crashed because he got to line his own pockets. Anyone who sees this photo and continues to deny it is on the same level as the anti-vax crowd.

I wonder who'll be the first to point out the New European watermark as if that invalidates in any way what's in the photo.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DW

You're correct. That is precisely what has happened. Plus, the fact that overseas goods now cost more in £s because of the collapse of the exchange rate (which itself happened because the markets expect Brexit to have a seriously detrimental effect on our economy) inflation has greatly increased over the past 2 years. Meaning people have, on average, got poorer because wage rises have been below inflation.

And then there's the economic effect. The rest of the developed world has had a nice little mini boom for the past two years. USA, Germany, France, Canada, Australia, Netherlands have all had growth between 2.5-4% per year. That leads to quickly rising wealth. And even the long term problem cases like Japan and Italy have been swept along.

We haven't. We've had growth of 1-1.5% since the vote. Because business investment has dropped off a cliff.

But what's the f**king point laying these facts out before Brexit-supporters. They are convinced that people are lying to them.

[IDM]

But don’t forget leave won, so that ends all arguments..

Or so some would say..

[Donnywolf]

It truly is like a fundamentalist religion. You can put any information you want in front of them. Lies. Criminality. Treason. The already disastrous economic effects which have lost us £60-100bn since the vote. The consensus of economic opinion that you can probably multiply that loss by 5-10 fold over the next decade.

There's literally a photograph of Farage pointing to a graph showing the collapsing pound on the night of the vote with a shit-eating grin on his face. Photo evidence of him shorting the pound and being delighted it crashed because he got to line his own pockets. Anyone who sees this photo and continues to deny it is on the same level as the anti-vax crowd.

I wonder who'll be the first to point out the New European watermark as if that invalidates in any way what's in the photo.

.... and filling his Boots still as an MEP. Yep being a Member of the very body he is supposed to despise

He will of course say he is there " to reform the EU from within" - yeah right

[Boomstick]

What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?

I'd like to see proof of how and why it has impacted each individual household.
Because personally I cant say I have been affected at all.
I'm just looking forward to the future long term gain as a individual sovereign country.

It baffles me that Brexiteers want proof why we should remain? Surely, before you make any decision in life, you look at the pro's and con's of changing something BEFORE changing it, you don't change something, then weight up the pro's and con's. PLUS once we leave, there is no going back!

If your a sane individual you wouldn't buy a car without inspecting it or at least looking at it first - the paperwork etc.
The electorate was never giving that opportunity in 2016 - in fact we were lied to dozens of times, and now we are told by Farage etc that the NHS won't be getting £350 million a week etc, yet Brexiteers still dismiss everything and say "f**k it, at least we'll have our sovereignty back" - WE WON'T! We'll have less power in the world, less of a voice, and less influence on global decisions!

Boomstick - you can't comment on how Brexit has affected you yet, as we're still part of the EU!

The country democratically voted to leave the undemocratic EU. Right?
So it's the remoaners who's job it is to prove why we should remain.
Something you lot can't do.

[IDM]

Boomstick.. please tell me, as you clearly support leave, what the post brexit will mean to EU citizens currently living in the uk..?

Not your opinion, the facts please..

[Yargo]

"By the way" Blair Sycophants Twaddle wasn't quite so interested in large numbers when they were protesting about the imminent destruction of Iraq, in far larger numbers.