Brexit deal

[wilts rover]

Well that was a complete waste of money if the only objective was to undermine Theresa May - a policy she has proved more than capable of carrying out herself!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Christ on a penny-farthing, it's turning into a bad sitcom.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48034732

Ann Widdecombe. A politician who spent her entire career trying to pretend the 20th century didn't happen.

Most failed old-folk have the decency to just shout at clouds. That generation is determined to drag the country back to some pre-War farce before they finally shuffle off.

[Boomstick]

Christ on a penny-farthing, it's turning into a bad sitcom.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48034732

Ann Widdecombe. A politician who spent her entire career trying to pretend the 20th century didn't happen.

Most failed old-folk have the decency to just shout at clouds. That generation is determined to drag the country back to some pre-War farce before they finally shuffle off.

Still on with the bigoted, ageist drivel I see bst.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not at all. I have boundless respect for many old people and I plan to be a respectable old person myself before too long. .

What I don't have respect for is old bigoted failures whose opinions belong back in the 1920s and who are trying to drag us back to that era.

It's not difficult to understand really.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way BS, you, being a libertarian, I assume will dislike Widdecombe as much as I do, given her opinions on social matters, no?

[Boomstick]

That wasn't my point, I was merely calling you out on your ageist views, and using Widdecombes age as a method to attack her.
I'm in no way defending or criticising her.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I wasn't attacking Widdecombe because of her age.

I was commenting on her age and inferring from that that her primary career (which was an unmitigated failure) is a long way behind her.


I was attacking her for her ideas. And suggesting that, since her ideas are both hopelessly out of date, and a major reason why she failed in her career, she'd be better advised to keep them to herself rather than drag herself out of well-earned retirement to foist them in us once again.

Just to re-iterate (because it seemed bleeding obvious to me, but clearly isn't to you) I have nothing against people of any age. What I WON'T respect is an older person who clings onto hopelessly outdated ideas and resents a world that has by-passed them. That's where the "shouting at clouds" comment comes from. It's about the attitude of simply moaning about everything.

[Pliskin]

Come on.

You just used Widdecombe as a proxy to casually malign "that generation" of people.

For what? Presumably for having the temerity to reject your view of the EU, amongst other things, in significant numbers "before they finally shuffle off" (really classy by the way).

You don't consider that to be an ageist insult at all?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pilskin
Perfectly fair points and, on re-reading, that's not a well-written post of mine.

What I SHOULD have said was "People of that generation like her, who have fought tooth and nail against the social advances of the second half of the Twentieth century are determined to drag us back to a pre-War farce before they shuffle off."

(NB. "shuffle off" being something that we will all do one day, and a term that was first used by our national Bard. Would you say he was being "classy" when he coined that term?)

I'll repeat. I do NOT despise old people. I'm going to be one myself one day. And I've known and admired many who, not only have put a superb shift in over their lifetimes, but they accept that the younger generations inherit the world, and they use their experience and wisdom to help guide and educate them.

But I DO despise bigoted old people (or people of any age) who hate the modern world and want to impose their antediluvian obsessions on people who will have to deal with the shit they've left after they've gone. Like Widdecombe.

[scawsby steve]

Pilskin
Perfectly fair points and, on re-reading, that's not a well-written post of mine.

What I SHOULD have said was "People of that generation like her, who have fought tooth and nail against the social advances of the second half of the Twentieth century are determined to drag us back to a pre-War farce before they shuffle off."

(NB. "shuffle off" being something that we will all do one day, and a term that was first used by our national Bard. Would you say he was being "classy" when he coined that term?)

I'll repeat. I do NOT despise old people. I'm going to be one myself one day. And I've known and admired many who, not only have put a superb shift in over their lifetimes, but they accept that the younger generations inherit the world, and they use their experience and wisdom to help guide and educate them.

But I DO despise bigoted old people (or people of any age) who hate the modern world and want to impose their antediluvian obsessions on people who will have to deal with the shit they've left after they've gone. Like Widdecombe.

It depends on what part of the modern world we're talking about Billy. Advances in science and technology have been fantastic, as has the stance against racism and homophobia, the reduction in carbon emissions, and the smoking ban.

However that's been offset by shootings, stabbings, violent women, no cops on the streets, alcoholism and drugs.

Also Billy, you seem to be a guy with good musical tastes, so surely you don't see (c)rap music as an advancement on 60s, 70s, and 80s music.

[The Red Baron]

I got my polling card for the EU Parliament elections today and should get my ballot paper (by post) next week. I shall feel very short-changed if May and Corbyn cook up some Brexit Fudge which gets through Parliament after I've voted but before election day.

[BillyStubbsTears]

In Political Shock of the Day (predicted by a few on here 4 months back) I see Chris Grayling has today agreed to give £50m of your and my money to two foreign companies for doing precisely f**k all.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48117366

But it's alright. This was just 1% of the money the Government spent on planning for something that was never going to happen.

Grayling says that £4bn was an insurance policy against the worst problems that would have hit us in the event of No Deal. Like that makes it all ok.

Just stop and think about that.

How many of you spend large sums on insuring against losing your senses and punching yourself in the face until you are unconscious?

[MachoMadness]

Local election results:

https://mobile.twitter.com/lancewalton/status/1124108139836649472

"If MPs can't interpret:

Leave parties: Labour (-32), Con (-39), UKIP (-11) : total -82
Remain parties: Lib Dems (+35), Green (+7) : total +42

then they're too stupid to be MPs."

Updated results: Conservatives: 1219 (-396)
🔽 Labour: 899 (-81)
🔼 Lib Dems: 521 (+271)
🔼 Greens: 42 (+36)
🔽 UKIP: 17 (-54)
🔼 Others: 358 (+224)

What's all this about democracy and that, then?

[BillyStubbsTears]

MM

Well the Today programme on R4 interview Labour councillors from Sunderland and Barnsley who insisted that Labour was losing seats to the Lads and Green because it wasn't supporting Brexit.

Granted, they didn't sound like the sharpest knives in the cutlery drawer.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Seats are not representative though are they. If the numbers move lab, con to other then often the libs etc gain from not gaining much.

Equally the turnout is so poor it doesn't tell us what would happen in a gen election etc.

What is surprising to me is how poor labour have done. I would have thought they would have gained a lot but they haven't as yet.  I suspect the patterns aren't uniform either and labours problem is probably being middle of the road....

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

Labour's performance isn't that much of a surprise.

These seats were last contested on the day of the 2015 GE. In that GE, Labour polled 30.4% of the vote. In recent opinion polls, Labour are on low 30s%. But yesterday's elections didn't include London, which is a Labour stronghold. So, assuming the polls are broadly correct, you'd probably expect Labour to do about as well as they did in 2015 in these council elections. Which is about what they are doing.

Why they are not doing much better against the most calamitous Govt in well over a century is the key question.

[The Red Baron]

MM

Well the Today programme on R4 interview Labour councillors from Sunderland and Barnsley who insisted that Labour was losing seats to the Lads and Green because it wasn't supporting Brexit.

Granted, they didn't sound like the sharpest knives in the cutlery drawer.

However, if you are still strongly pro-Leave, as voters often are in the areas you mention, what incentive is there to vote Labour or Conservative?

By the same token, if you've strongly pro-Remain, the same applies.

In a lot of Wards the only opposition to the "Big Two" is the Lib Dems and/ or the Greens. UKIP don't have much strength on the ground now.

So yes, paradoxically pro-Leave voters may be delivering a protest vote by voting for pro-Remain parties.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's a bizarre extrapolation TRB.

I'm struggling to see how on earth a Leave voter is registering a protest vote by voting for unambiguously pro-Remain parties.

It's almost like you're suggesting that Leave voters aren't very bright.

[The Red Baron]

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-05-03/why-was-labour-punished-in-local-elections/

[RobTheRover]

Pilskin
"shuffle off" being something that we will all do one day, and a term that was first used by our national Bard. Would you say he was being "classy" when he coined that term?

I agree Jim Bob from Carter the Unstoppable Sex Machine should be regarded as our National Bard.

"Well I remember Micky Doyle, he just shuffled off this mortal coil" - Every time a Church Bell Rings.  Lovely song

[The Red Baron]

That's a bizarre extrapolation TRB.

I'm struggling to see how on earth a Leave voter is registering a protest vote by voting for unambiguously pro-Remain parties.

It's almost like you're suggesting that Leave voters aren't very bright.

On the other hand, they might be showing a high degree of sophistication.

We really wait to see when all the figures are in. Is it a case of voters just shunning the Tories, and Labour to a lesser degree, or are they actually flocking to the Lib Dems and Greens.

[RedJ]

There was a fair sized campaign online to get people to vote Lib Dem and Green to show their feeling on Brexit as Labour are increasingly seen (unsurprisingly) as a Brexit party too.

[The Red Baron]

There was a fair sized campaign online to get people to vote Lib Dem and Green to show their feeling on Brexit as Labour are increasingly seen (unsurprisingly) as a Brexit party too.

That was one of my points. If you are pro-Remain, and especially if you want a Second Referendum, there's no reason for you to vote Labour, either in these elections or the EU ones.

[DonnyOsmond]

If there was a GE now the result would be brilliant. No chance anyone would get a majority.

[The Red Baron]

If there was a GE now the result would be brilliant. No chance anyone would get a majority.

I think these elections and the EU ones will probably put to bed any idea that a General Election might break the Brexit logjam.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

If there was a GE now the result would be brilliant. No chance anyone would get a majority.

I think these elections and the EU ones will probably put to bed any idea that a General Election might break the Brexit logjam.

I don't think it ever was going to.  What everyone needs is to get past Brexit and back on to moving forwards...

[i_ateallthepies]

That's a bizarre extrapolation TRB.

I'm struggling to see how on earth a Leave voter is registering a protest vote by voting for unambiguously pro-Remain parties.

It's almost like you're suggesting that Leave voters aren't very bright.

On the other hand, they might be showing a high degree of sophistication.

We really wait to see when all the figures are in. Is it a case of voters just shunning the Tories, and Labour to a lesser degree, or are they actually flocking to the Lib Dems and Greens.

Surely, if Labour and the Tories are heamoraging votes to such a degree, it doesn't require anyone to flock to the other parties for those other parties to gain seats.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There was a fair sized campaign online to get people to vote Lib Dem and Green to show their feeling on Brexit as Labour are increasingly seen (unsurprisingly) as a Brexit party too.

That was one of my points. If you are pro-Remain, and especially if you want a Second Referendum, there's no reason for you to vote Labour, either in these elections or the EU ones.

Yep. I agree very much with that.

What I don't agree with is the insistence that Labour has been hammered because it's not supporting Leave.

[scawsby steve]

Local election results:

https://mobile.twitter.com/lancewalton/status/1124108139836649472

"If MPs can't interpret:

Leave parties: Labour (-32), Con (-39), UKIP (-11) : total -82
Remain parties: Lib Dems (+35), Green (+7) : total +42

then they're too stupid to be MPs."

Updated results: Conservatives: 1219 (-396)
🔽 Labour: 899 (-81)
🔼 Lib Dems: 521 (+271)
🔼 Greens: 42 (+36)
🔽 UKIP: 17 (-54)
🔼 Others: 358 (+224)

What's all this about democracy and that, then?

Totally irrelevant. The Lib Dems always mop up when the 2 main parties are unpopular. If you want to see a real reaction to the Brexit situation, just wait until May 23rd.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just bizarre how many folk are effectively saying that voters who think Lab and Con aren't delivering on Brexit are switching to parties that would overturn Brexit.

And it's odd isn't it. When I pointed out the established fact that Brexit supporters were disproportionately old and with low levels of educational qualification, I had a torrent of abuse for "insulting" Leave voters. But here we are, with people effectively saying that Leave voters are too thick to understand what parties stand for, or what a protest vote is, and there's not a flicker of complaint.