Brexit deal

[Glyn_Wigley]

Now both big parties are stringing the line that people not voting for them is their way of telling them to 'get on with it'

Since when has being told to feck off equated to being told to 'get on with it'?

[Mr1Croft]

There was a fair sized campaign online to get people to vote Lib Dem and Green to show their feeling on Brexit as Labour are increasingly seen (unsurprisingly) as a Brexit party too.

That was one of my points. If you are pro-Remain, and especially if you want a Second Referendum, there's no reason for you to vote Labour, either in these elections or the EU ones.

Yep. I agree very much with that.

What I don't agree with is the insistence that Labour has been hammered because it's not supporting Leave.

I'm not going to make any assumptions or conclusions here BST, but here is (from around 2 hours ago) the areas where Labour lost councillors, and how those areas voted in the EU Referendum in 2016.

Allerdale: Lost 11. Voted to leave by 59%

Ashfield: Lost 20. Voted to leave by 70%

Barnsley: Lost 7. Voted to leave by 68%

Barrow-in-Furness: Lost 3. Voted to leave by 61%

Blackburn with Darwen: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 56%

Blackpool: Lost 6: Voted to leave by 68%

Bolsover: Lost 14. Voted to leave by 71%

Bolton: Lost 7. Voted to leave by 58%

Brighton and Hove: Lost 3. Voted to remain by 68%

Bromsgrove: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 55%

Burnley: Lost 4. Voted to leave by 67%

Bury: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 54%

Cannock Chase: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 67%

Carlisle: Lost 6. Voted to leave by 60%

Central Bedfordshire: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 56%

Chesterfield: Lost 10. Voted to leave by 60%

Dacorum: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 51%

Darlington: Lost 9. Voted to leave by 56%

Derby: Lost 6. Voted to leave by 57%

Dover: Lost 1. Voted to Leave by 62%

East Riding of Yorkshire: Lost 6. Voted to Leave by 60%

East Staffordshire: Lost 2. Voted to Leave by 63%

East Suffolk: Lost 4. Voted to leave by 53%

Exeter: Lost 1. Voted to remain by 55%

Forest of Dean: Lost 6. Voted to leave by 59%

Fylde: Lost 1. Voted to leave by  57%

Gateshead: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 57%

Halton: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 57%

Hartlepool: Lost 5. Voted to leave by 70%

Kirklees: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 55%

Knowsley: Lost 3. Voted to Leave by 52%

Leeds: Lost 3. Voted remain by 50.3%

Liverpool: Lost 3. Voted remain by 58%

Luton: Lost 3. Voted leave by 57%

Manchester: Lost 1. Voted remain by 60%

Middlesbrough: Lost 13. Voted to leave by 67%

Newark and Sherwood: Lost 5. Voted to leave by 60%

Newcastle: Lost 2. Voted to remain by 51%

North East Derbyshire: Lost 17. Voted to leave by 63%

North East Lincolnshire: lost 6. Voted to leave by 70%

North Lincolnshire: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 66%

North Tyneside: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 53%

Norwich: Lost 4. Voted remain by 56%

Nottingham: Lost 3. Voted leave by 51%

Oldham: Lost 1. Voted leave by 61%

Pendle: Lost 1. Voted leave by 63%

Redcar & Cleveland: Lost 13. Voted to leave by 66%

Redditch: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 62%

Rhibble Valley: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 56%

Rossendale: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 61%

Salford: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 57%

Scarborough: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 62%

Sevenoaks: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 54%

Sheffield: Lost 3. Voted to leave by 51%

South Gloucestershire: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 53%

South Hams: Lost 1. Voted Remain by 53%

South Staffordshire: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 65%

South Tyneside: Lost 5. Voted to leave by 62%

St Helens: Lost 4. Voted to leave by 58%

Stockton On Tees: Lost 8. Voted to leave by 62%

Stoke-On-Trent: Lost 5. Voted to leave by 69%

Stratford-upon-Avon: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 52%

Sunderland: Lost 12. Voted to leave by 61%

Swindon: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 55%

Tamworth: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 68%

Wakefield: Lost 3. Voted to leave by 66%

Walsall: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 68%

Warwick: Lost 3. Voted to remain by 59%

Welwyn Hatfield: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 53%

West Devon: Lost 2. Voted to leave by 53%

West Lancashire: Lost 4. Voted to leave by 55%

West Lindsey: Lost 4. Voted to leave by 62%

Wigan: Lost 3. Voted to leave by 64%

Wirral: Lost 4. Voted to remain by 52%

Wolverhampton: Lost 1. Voted to leave by 63%

Wyre: Lost 5. Voted to leave by 64%

Wyre Forest: Lost 3. Voted to leave by 63%

Results of EU Referendum taken from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results/local/b

Results of local elections taken from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ceeqy0e9894t/england-local-elections-2019

[BillyStubbsTears]

Now both big parties are stringing the line that people not voting for them is their way of telling them to 'get on with it'

Since when has being told to feck off equated to being told to 'get on with it'?

It's the Zeitgeist. Policy-based evidence making, instead of evidence-based policy making.

It's been creeping in for years but it rules the roost on all sides these days.

You decide what you belief and you hammer the evidence until it fits into that mould.

Corbyn wants Brexit. Always has and he always will. Therefore the facts SHALL show that Labour voters want Brexit.

Crofty here, although he's not making any conclusions, is in danger of running down the same ideologically convinced rabbit hole by presenting data with a very particular slant.

Crofty.

1) That evidence says nothing about what LABOUR voters voted in 2016. It says only what the Leave vote was in the areas in total.

2) Who have Labour lost seats to today? There's been a UKIP candidate in pretty much every one that Labour lost. How many did they pick up? And how many were lost to the LDs and Greens?

Excellent research Crofty by the way. You've got more patience than me to put that together. But it would be more informative to also look at areas where Labour gained seats this time (e.g. Calderdale, +4, 55.7% Leave: Plymouth, +1, 59.9% Leave: Peterborough, +3, 60.9% Leave...I haven't got your patience but there are a good few more).

And, critically, you need to look at who the lost Labour votes have gone to. Sunderland seems to be the poster town for Left Leave these days. Yesterday, Labour's vote was down 17%. But UKIP was only up 4.5%. whereas the Lads were up 10% and the Greens up 8.5%.

Unless you subscribe to SS's view that Leave voters are to thick or idle to know how to register a protest vote (and therefore voted LD when they could have voted UKIP) that looks to me like Labour losing more Remain supporters than Leave supporters.   

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actual Evidence: A majority of voters in a large number of Labour-supporting areas voted Leave in 2016.

Desired Policy: Brexit

Policy-Based Evidence Making: A majority of LABOUR voters in a large number of constituencies are Brexit supporters today.

Actual Evidence: Labour today lost seats. Predominantly to the LDs and Greens. Labour lost very few seats to the key Brexit-supporting party fighting these elections.

Desired Policy: Brexit.

Policy-Based Evidence Making: Labour lost seats today because it is not unequivocally backing Brexit.

[scawsby steve]

Now both big parties are stringing the line that people not voting for them is their way of telling them to 'get on with it'

Since when has being told to feck off equated to being told to 'get on with it'?

It's the Zeitgeist. Policy-based evidence making, instead of evidence-based policy making.

It's been creeping in for years but it rules the roost on all sides these days.

You decide what you belief and you hammer the evidence until it fits into that mould.

Corbyn wants Brexit. Always has and he always will. Therefore the facts SHALL show that Labour voters want Brexit.

Crofty here, although he's not making any conclusions, is in danger of running down the same ideologically convinced rabbit hole by presenting data with a very particular slant.

Crofty.

1) That evidence says nothing about what LABOUR voters voted in 2016. It says only what the Leave vote was in the areas in total.

2) Who have Labour lost seats to today? There's been a UKIP candidate in pretty much every one that Labour lost. How many did they pick up? And how many were lost to the LDs and Greens?

Excellent research Crofty by the way. You've got more patience than me to put that together. But it would be more informative to also look at areas where Labour gained seats this time (e.g. Calderdale, +4, 55.7% Leave: Plymouth, +1, 59.9% Leave: Peterborough, +3, 60.9% Leave...I haven't got your patience but there are a good few more).

And, critically, you need to look at who the lost Labour votes have gone to. Sunderland seems to be the poster town for Left Leave these days. Yesterday, Labour's vote was down 17%. But UKIP was only up 4.5%. whereas the Lads were up 10% and the Greens up 8.5%.

Unless you subscribe to SS's view that Leave voters are to thick or idle to know how to register a protest vote (and therefore voted LD when they could have voted UKIP) that looks to me like Labour losing more Remain supporters than Leave supporters.

You're not getting it Billy; nobody's interested in UKIP anymore, they're a spent force. As I said in the other thread, the Brexit Party didn't stand, but they'll be standing on May 23rd. Wait for it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye SS.

They'll get 25-30%. Built on a campaign funded by Putin.

It'll f**k the Tory party from top to bottom. But that'll be the limit of them.

What are you wanting? A party like that, bankrolled by the Kremlin to take over?

[SydneyRover]

The Beast of Bolsover ousted.

Labour’s dominance in Bolsover – so strong that its famed veteran MP and lifelong Eurosceptic, Dennis Skinner, was nicknamed the beast of Bolsover – was well and truly overthrown on Thursday night. In the old Derbyshire mining town, a Labour stronghold for 40 years, the party suffered one of the biggest defeats in its history, losing control of the local district council for the first time since its inception.

The victorious were those who stood as independents, signalling a new era for British politics. On Friday afternoon, as ballot papers were furiously being sifted through for the parish councils, Ross Walker – a newly elected independent councillor – became visibly emotional.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/03/labour-loses-control-of-bolsover-for-first-time-in-its-40-year-history

[BillyStubbsTears]

Skinner, of course, being one of the most outspoken Labour Leave supporters.

[Donnywolf]

Ive just seen Hancock and an amazingly stupid (imo) summary of what people wanted fro the Local Elections

Not one person on any doorstep he visited said "actually I wanted a slightly different B****t" " I wanted a tweak to Clause 5" " I wanted a slightly different approach to blah blah" (I had lost interest by then) NO he said everyone just said please please just get on with it

I am sick and tired of people like him telling media what I want. He doesnt have a clue what I or the majority of people want.

 

[idler]

I agree wholeheartedly John. How can he assume that everybody voted for a hard or stupid Brexit.

[albie]

Caution needs to be taken in drawing conclusions based on local election results for national trends.
Many local elections are influenced by particular local considerations, which are not understood outside the area.

That said, IF it carries through, the revival of the Lib Dems in areas where they are the Tory challengers is important. It means the Tories are squeezed on both sides by voters who would not consider Labour.

The most important thing for Labour going into any GE is that the Tories lose seats where a viable contender is in touching distance.

Interesting times!

[wilts rover]

Interesting chart that shows a clear Leave/Remain effect for both Labour & the Tories. Labour did worse in the areas that had a greater leave vote and the Tories did worse the greater the remain vote.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1124404593524453379

[bpoolrover]

Don’t no what the turn out was in most places but I don’t know 1 person that voted, many of them say they will in the European elections thou so will see if there is a biggger than normal turnout

[idler]

Me and the wife did but Labour got in anyway. They aren’t a patch on the Lib Dem’s in Bradford.

[SydneyRover]

“b*llocks to Brexit.”

Go the Lib Dems, if JC can't get his head around remain there is a party that can.

Vince Cable has staked the Liberal Democrats’ claim to be the leading remain party in the European elections, as he unveiled a forthright new slogan for the campaign: “b*llocks to Brexit.”

The phrase, previously plastered on stickers and T-shirts by ardent remain supporters, is now emblazoned across the Lib Dem manifesto for the 23 May poll – though more squeamish candidates will have the option of one that just says “Stop Brexit”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/09/vince-cable-stakes-lib-dems-claim-as-torch-carriers-for-remain

[scawsby steve]

“b*llocks to Brexit.”

Go the Lib Dems, if JC can't get his head around remain there is a party that can.

Vince Cable has staked the Liberal Democrats’ claim to be the leading remain party in the European elections, as he unveiled a forthright new slogan for the campaign: “b*llocks to Brexit.”

The phrase, previously plastered on stickers and T-shirts by ardent remain supporters, is now emblazoned across the Lib Dem manifesto for the 23 May poll – though more squeamish candidates will have the option of one that just says “Stop Brexit”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/09/vince-cable-stakes-lib-dems-claim-as-torch-carriers-for-remain

Thanks for that Sydney; that slogan just sums you lot up perfectly.

Roll on May 23rd.

[The Red Baron]

I never really saw Vince Cable as a Johnny Rotten figure.

[idler]

I never really saw Vince Cable as a Johnny Rotten figure.

Never mind. 😉

[Bentley Bullet]

“b*llocks to Brexit.”

Go the Lib Dems, if JC can't get his head around remain there is a party that can.

Vince Cable has staked the Liberal Democrats’ claim to be the leading remain party in the European elections, as he unveiled a forthright new slogan for the campaign: “b*llocks to Brexit.”

The phrase, previously plastered on stickers and T-shirts by ardent remain supporters, is now emblazoned across the Lib Dem manifesto for the 23 May poll – though more squeamish candidates will have the option of one that just says “Stop Brexit”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/09/vince-cable-stakes-lib-dems-claim-as-torch-carriers-for-remain

That's a bit vicious, Sydney.

[idler]

Surely it's the Tories wanting to Sell England by the pound.

[wilts rover]

Surely it's the Tories wanting to Sell England by the pound.

Thats the Genesis of it yes...

[The Red Baron]

I never really saw Vince Cable as a Johnny Rotten figure.

Never mind. 😉

On a similar theme, what will they call the next General Election manifesto? "Never Mind The B***ocks, Here's The Lib Dems." As a proud owner of the Pistols album, I remember there was a lot of Lib. Dem yellow on the cover, so it wouldn't need a massive redesign.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Surely it's the Tories wanting to Sell England by the pound.

Give 'Em Enough Rope or we're all Damned Damned Damned.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Straight to Hell?
Ever Fallen in Love with a Brexit You Shouldn't Have Fallen In Love With?
It's (not) Gonna Happen?

By the way, I strongly recommend this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0004vyd/storyville-brexit-behind-closed-doors-part-1
Eye-opening, informative and (as  someone who is proud to be British) shaming.

[SydneyRover]

“b*llocks to Brexit.”

Go the Lib Dems, if JC can't get his head around remain there is a party that can.

Vince Cable has staked the Liberal Democrats’ claim to be the leading remain party in the European elections, as he unveiled a forthright new slogan for the campaign: “b*llocks to Brexit.”

The phrase, previously plastered on stickers and T-shirts by ardent remain supporters, is now emblazoned across the Lib Dem manifesto for the 23 May poll – though more squeamish candidates will have the option of one that just says “Stop Brexit”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/09/vince-cable-stakes-lib-dems-claim-as-torch-carriers-for-remain

Thanks for that Sydney; that slogan just sums you lot up perfectly.

Roll on May 23rd.

Sorry Steve, I wouldn't ''roll on May'' even if your life depended on it!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tell you what. You've got to hand it to May. Having a poll rating of 8% when folk were asked if they approved of her handling of the Brexit negotiations is something exceptional.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-approve-or-disapprove-of-the-way-in-which-the-government-is-handling-the-brexit-negotiations/

How can you do that? How can you be so shit at handling THE most important job you've got, that 92% of the population agree that you're shit?

This is how. You can ride off into the negotiations framing yourself as Boudicea, shouting the odds and telling the country how great Brexit will be, while all the time having not a single card to play, and no support from Parliament.

I honestly did not believe this great country of ours could ever be ruled by such a blundering incompetent as this. It is harrowing to watch.

[wing commander]

oh I wouldn't worry Billy...Corbyn might get in soon then you can really sit down with the popcorn..

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting the remain parties were talking about standing a united remain candidate in some areas but guess what, it seems they couldn't even agree on that...

[The Red Baron]

Straight to Hell?
Ever Fallen in Love with a Brexit You Shouldn't Have Fallen In Love With?
It's (not) Gonna Happen?

By the way, I strongly recommend this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0004vyd/storyville-brexit-behind-closed-doors-part-1
Eye-opening, informative and (as  someone who is proud to be British) shaming.

Surely the ultimate Brexit soundtrack is Hotel California by The Eagles.


"You can check out any time you like, but you can never Leave."

[MachoMadness]

Some bloke off the street manages to make Nidge squirm by confronting him with facts and not letting him bullshit his way around them. I wonder if many mainstream reporters will do the same?
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1126609186178072577