Brexit deal

[Herbert Anchovy]

Maybe I’m being really simple here..

BJ is telling the EU he is prepared to leave on 31 Oct with no deal, and won’t accept an extension.  But the UK now has a law that he must ask for an extension of Brexit is not resolved with an agreement by 17/18 October..

Does that mean he is blatantly saying he IS prepared to break the law.?  Does he think the EU politicians and our own Parliament are stupid.?

When will this stupid idiot accept that no deal is not an option..?

Nope, but he knows that a large number of the British public are; and that's all that matters.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

 
Firstly, there's only one of me - not a 'lot'.
 
Secondly, when something is shown to be either a lie or just plain wrong, then if people a) continue to believe it and/or b) continue to repeat it, or c) base all their arguments on it then what are they other than stupid?
 
Do you, honestly, still believe the lies that not only were being told then, but are continuing to be told now? An awful lot of people still do.

NNK

Your sweeping generalisation that others who don’t share your view as ‘stupid’ is unnecessary and says more about you than those who you deem to be stupid. You don’t think the frustration goes both ways? I’ve read comments from leavers and remainers that beggars belief. I’ve seen remainers make the most outrageous denials about the EU that are just simply wrong! Misguided maybe, but stupid no.

[scawsby steve]

Maybe I’m being really simple here..

BJ is telling the EU he is prepared to leave on 31 Oct with no deal, and won’t accept an extension.  But the UK now has a law that he must ask for an extension of Brexit is not resolved with an agreement by 17/18 October..

Does that mean he is blatantly saying he IS prepared to break the law.?  Does he think the EU politicians and our own Parliament are stupid.?

When will this stupid idiot accept that no deal is not an option..?

Nope, but he knows that a large number of the British public are; and that's all that matters.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

 
Firstly, there's only one of me - not a 'lot'.
 
Secondly, when something is shown to be either a lie or just plain wrong, then if people a) continue to believe it and/or b) continue to repeat it, or c) base all their arguments on it then what are they other than stupid?
 
Do you, honestly, still believe the lies that not only were being told then, but are continuing to be told now? An awful lot of people still do.

You're one of a lot on here that constantly sneer and insult.

As regards lies, do you still believe the lie that Corbyn is pro-EU?

So are you, looking at the posts you've made only today.

Show me where I've insulted anyone.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

Two sneers for the price of one right there.

What? I'm not allowed to defend myself against someone who says Brexiters are stupid?

You're so blinkered and partisan that you've lost the ability to think clearly and objectively. Is that an insult? If so, have that one on me.

And it's a hat-trick!

I'm not saying don't defend your viewpoint but don't you think it makes you look a total prat when you continually moan about people sneering on this forum when it's all you ever do yourself to 'defend' yourself?

A total prat? I think you need to be a bit careful with your words old lad.

[Not Now Kato]

Maybe I’m being really simple here..

BJ is telling the EU he is prepared to leave on 31 Oct with no deal, and won’t accept an extension.  But the UK now has a law that he must ask for an extension of Brexit is not resolved with an agreement by 17/18 October..

Does that mean he is blatantly saying he IS prepared to break the law.?  Does he think the EU politicians and our own Parliament are stupid.?

When will this stupid idiot accept that no deal is not an option..?

Nope, but he knows that a large number of the British public are; and that's all that matters.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

 
Firstly, there's only one of me - not a 'lot'.
 
Secondly, when something is shown to be either a lie or just plain wrong, then if people a) continue to believe it and/or b) continue to repeat it, or c) base all their arguments on it then what are they other than stupid?
 
Do you, honestly, still believe the lies that not only were being told then, but are continuing to be told now? An awful lot of people still do.

You're one of a lot on here that constantly sneer and insult.

As regards lies, do you still believe the lie that Corbyn is pro-EU?

So are you, looking at the posts you've made only today.

Show me where I've insulted anyone.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

Two sneers for the price of one right there.

What? I'm not allowed to defend myself against someone who says Brexiters are stupid?

You're so blinkered and partisan that you've lost the ability to think clearly and objectively. Is that an insult? If so, have that one on me.

Where did I say Brexiteers are stupid? 
 
Now, are YOU going to answer the question I've asked YOU twice already - Do YOU, honestly, still believe the lies that not only were being told then, but are continuing to be told now?
 
Then maybe try and answer foxbat's two questions from earlier too.
 
Or is that too much to ask?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Maybe I’m being really simple here..

BJ is telling the EU he is prepared to leave on 31 Oct with no deal, and won’t accept an extension.  But the UK now has a law that he must ask for an extension of Brexit is not resolved with an agreement by 17/18 October..

Does that mean he is blatantly saying he IS prepared to break the law.?  Does he think the EU politicians and our own Parliament are stupid.?

When will this stupid idiot accept that no deal is not an option..?

Nope, but he knows that a large number of the British public are; and that's all that matters.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

 
Firstly, there's only one of me - not a 'lot'.
 
Secondly, when something is shown to be either a lie or just plain wrong, then if people a) continue to believe it and/or b) continue to repeat it, or c) base all their arguments on it then what are they other than stupid?
 
Do you, honestly, still believe the lies that not only were being told then, but are continuing to be told now? An awful lot of people still do.

You're one of a lot on here that constantly sneer and insult.

As regards lies, do you still believe the lie that Corbyn is pro-EU?

So are you, looking at the posts you've made only today.

Show me where I've insulted anyone.

Stupid? Well done NNK, true to form.

You lot just don't get it do you?

Two sneers for the price of one right there.

What? I'm not allowed to defend myself against someone who says Brexiters are stupid?

You're so blinkered and partisan that you've lost the ability to think clearly and objectively. Is that an insult? If so, have that one on me.

And it's a hat-trick!

I'm not saying don't defend your viewpoint but don't you think it makes you look a total prat when you continually moan about people sneering on this forum when it's all you ever do yourself to 'defend' yourself?

A total prat? I think you need to be a bit careful with your words old lad.

Why should I be careful? I haven't called you one. But then, judging by the assumptions you jump to all the time you do seem to have a lot of problems understanding what other people have written in plain English.

It's also very telling that you jump on a perceived insult - but which isn't - and yet you don't deny sneering at everybody.

[Herbert Anchovy]

never mind Corbyn , answer the question.

Or:
 tell me just ONE tangible , and confirmable way in which you, me and my family
will be better off by the UK leaving the EU ?

Or:
tell me just ONE tangible, and confirmable way in being in the EU makes things difficult for you.

The problem with that question is that you sometimes get a reply that you don’t like and go into denial (not you specifically, but remainers in general). Earlier this year we discussed rail nationalisation as a benefit of leaving and how EU membership makes this almost impossible (and after 2023 will become even more difficult) and I was shouted down!  Even though I know from absolute experience that it’s true! See what I mean?

So, let’s try another. One of the reasons I voted leave was that I’m very uncomfortable with Britain being part of the ever closer union that Brussels is moving towards. If we were to stay in the EU I doubt it’d continue to be on our current terms. I could see the U.K. rebate disappearing, increased regulatory alignment, eventual membership of the Euro and the EU army. 

By leaving we’d immediately be able to begin making free trade agreements with the rest of the world. We’d have full control of our fisheries and agriculture, which given the size of our population, we could offset any loss in exports by increased domestic consumption.

Brexit is full of uncertainty. Nobody knows what’s going to happen but we all know what could happen. Brexit can be a success or a failure and that depends on the people delivering it.

[Sprotyrover]

Aldi are clearly concerned about their future in the U.K. After Brexit! So much so that they are investing £350 million in new Stores.

[IDM]

never mind Corbyn , answer the question.

Or:
 tell me just ONE tangible , and confirmable way in which you, me and my family
will be better off by the UK leaving the EU ?

Or:
tell me just ONE tangible, and confirmable way in being in the EU makes things difficult for you.

The problem with that question is that you sometimes get a reply that you don’t like and go into denial (not you specifically, but remainers in general). Earlier this year we discussed rail nationalisation as a benefit of leaving and how EU membership makes this almost impossible (and after 2023 will become even more difficult) and I was shouted down!  Even though I know from absolute experience that it’s true! See what I mean?

So, let’s try another. One of the reasons I voted leave was that I’m very uncomfortable with Britain being part of the ever closer union that Brussels is moving towards. If we were to stay in the EU I doubt it’d continue to be on our current terms. I could see the U.K. rebate disappearing, increased regulatory alignment, eventual membership of the Euro and the EU army. 

By leaving we’d immediately be able to begin making free trade agreements with the rest of the world. We’d have full control of our fisheries and agriculture, which given the size of our population, we could offset any loss in exports by increased domestic consumption.

Brexit is full of uncertainty. Nobody knows what’s going to happen but we all know what could happen. Brexit can be a success or a failure and that depends on the people delivering it.

They’ve not managed very well since the referendum, have they.?

[Herbert Anchovy]

I’d agree IDM, they done an awful job and we now find ourselves in this ungodly mess

[Glyn_Wigley]

Aldi are clearly concerned about their future in the U.K. After Brexit! So much so that they are investing £350 million in new Stores.

Perhaps they foresee an increase in the the number of people reduced to shopping in them?

[foxbat]

big boom for budget food stores . Brexiters looking forward to the return to powdered egg to celebrate how ' we won the war ' .
 They used to make a ' marmalade ' out of carrots, apparently,  cant wait for that.
who says you can't enjoy living in a 3rd world country ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

big boom for budget food stores . Brexiters looking forward to the return to powdered egg to celebrate how ' we won the war ' .
 They used to make a ' marmalade ' out of carrots, apparently,  cant wait for that.
who says you can't enjoy living in a 3rd world country ?

Perhaps they ought to sign up Mark 'Uncle Albert' Francois to front the ad campaign..?

[Herbert Anchovy]

big boom for budget food stores . Brexiters looking forward to the return to powdered egg to celebrate how ' we won the war ' .
 They used to make a ' marmalade ' out of carrots, apparently,  cant wait for that.
who says you can't enjoy living in a 3rd world country ?

Perhaps they ought to sign up Mark 'Uncle Albert' Francois to front the ad campaign..?

840 Aldi stores opened in the UK while we’ve been in the EU, so it can’t be that bad can it? Fancy having budget food stores in the land of EU milk and honey...

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

I don't understand you.

You're a socialist, no?

You've seen Brexit hijacked by the extreme Right of British politics.

What do you think is going to come out well from this?

Honest, open question.

[Sprotyrover]

big boom for budget food stores . Brexiters looking forward to the return to powdered egg to celebrate how ' we won the war ' .
 They used to make a ' marmalade ' out of carrots, apparently,  cant wait for that.
who says you can't enjoy living in a 3rd world country ?

Perhaps they ought to sign up Mark 'Uncle Albert' Francois to front the ad campaign..?

840 Aldi stores opened in the UK while we’ve been in the EU, so it can’t be that bad can it? Fancy having budget food stores in the land of EU milk and honey...

Aldi and Lidl Dominate the German supermarket scene, hardly in the class of Neto and. I am afraid it must be very disappointing for the people on hear trying to undermine Brexit, just look at some of the Purile comments from two of the main culprits,Foxbat and Glynn Wigley,no doubt Sidney rover and Billy will be jumping on the band wagon.I am calmly waiting for the diatribe of abuse I will be getting from the remain camp followers on this board. Take it on the chin gang one of the largest retailers on the planet has given Brexit and Boris Johnson a massive vote of confidence today,!!! You have all been blown out of the water!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Netto doesn't exist in the UK any more and hasn't for some years. Good job for Aldi and Lidl that they aren't in their class, isn't it?

[SydneyRover]

Well you'd be the one most able to recognise it Sproty cos most of what you write on politics is unmitigated unsubstantiated diatribe

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA

I don't understand you.

You're a socialist, no?

You've seen Brexit hijacked by the extreme Right of British politics.

What do you think is going to come out well from this?

Honest, open question.

Billy

I don’t understand why you don’t get me?

Yes, I’m a Socialist but (hopefully) not a fervent, blinkered one but a Socialist all the same. It’s those Socialist values that influenced my view that we should leave the EU.

The EU has morphed into a bloated, undemocratic capitalist club. There’s never been anything remotely Socialist about the EU. I believe in Nationalisation of railways, water and power; something that there’s very little chance of delivering while in the EU and will become even more difficult come 2023. An industry will need to be in economic meltdown before nationalisation will be even considered by the EU. The imposed austerity measures on Greece and Italy also leave a sour taste.

I believe in the opportunities that Brexit could bring in delivering a modern, socialist economic policy; public ownership, lower rates of VAT, fair trade agreements with developing nations and state aid for sunrise industries (which I’ve seen from personal experience could be a huge positive for the U.K.). Much of this is at best difficult, or at worst illegal, under current EU law and there’s nothing at all the UK can do about it.

In 3 years, I’ve seen or heard nothing whatsoever to change my view on these points.

I get the economic advantage of membership. In an ideal world we’d revert back to a common market scenario. I occasionally work with business across the EU who trade with the U.K. and understand perfectly the benefits of this. However I do object to the political interference.

The thing is, none of this really matters though. People have stopped listening when it comes to Brexit. People have their views and are rigidly sticking to them, despite facts being presented to them. If you looked back over this thread you’d see several occasions where someone has asked for ‘just one benefit of leaving the EU’. Each time I’ve responded I’ve either been called a liar, wrong or simply been ignored.

That’s what has brought us to the point where we have Johnson as PM. Do I object to the fact that Brexit has been taken over by the right? Absolutely I do. Would I vote differently in a referendum if I knew this would be the case? ...it really does pain me to say it, but I very probably would.

Hope that helps

[bobjimwilly]

Appreciate your reply HA, I really do. You are actually the only person so far that has highlighted potential benefits, which I agree are potential benefits.

However, like you said, these things are also possible whilst still in the EU, although they may be more difficult to achieve. Public ownership and Lower VAT rates could be looked into right now, but a Tory government certainly wouldn't do these things, and it would be difficult for Labour unless they win an election with a majority.

These, for me, point to how Brexit has been used to deceive the majority of Brexiteers; the falsehood that all problems are caused by EU, and are somehow not political decisions made by the UK government. Privatisation, higher VAT, austerity - all choices made by the government; nothing to do AT ALL with the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I get all that HA. I fully understand the Left argument against the EU, although I don't agree with it as I think the gains would be far outweighed by the trading losses. I also think the issue about political integration is a bogeyman that belongs to a past era and won't come back again with any strength in our lifetimes.

I very much agree with what you say about Greece, although strictly speaking, that was an issue about the Euro (which I think is a deeply flawed idea) and a specific and wrong obsession in Germany with a certain economic model rather than the EU. To me, the problem there, as ever, is that we need a strong counterweight to German influence, not to walk away from the EU. And I think the idea that we would somehow be forced into the Euro against our will is so far away from any realistic future scenario that it's not worth considering. If it DID happen, "I" would want to leave the EU, but I'd want to leave THEN, not now.

So yeah, I get all those arguments, even the ones I disagree with, because honest people can disagree.

What I don't get is how people of the Left didn't see that the process was all about the civil war on the Right of British politics, and that there was no way of them getting a socialist Brexit. Or, if there WAS a chance of that, there was at least an equal chance that Brexit would be driven through as a Hard Right scheme. That always seemed the clinching argument against Brexit from the Left. That a Left vote for Brexit strengthened the very people that we are most opposed to and made possible the worst sort of future outcome. THAT's the bit I don't get.

[DonnyOsmond]

HA is Jeremy Corbyn.

[foxbat]

I see that Farage's lies about the EU being undemocratic are still being permitted on here.

This isn't the BBC , statements like this being presented as truth won't go unchallenged

( how many times )


WE elect the MEPs , THEY elect the officials.

What could be more democratic than that ?

anyone ?

this from a country that has just had its parliament shut down like some 3rd world military dictatorship

[Herbert Anchovy]

I see that Farage's lies about the EU being undemocratic are still being permitted on here.

This isn't the BBC , statements like this being presented as truth won't go unchallenged

( how many times )


WE elect the MEPs , THEY elect the officials.

What could be more democratic than that ?

anyone ?

this from a country that has just had its parliament shut down like some 3rd world military dictatorship

Foxbat

I’m comfortable with having my views challenged...as I trust you are with yours too?

As I’m sure you’re fully aware, the European Parliament (where the MEP’s sit) has extremely limited powers. For example, it’s unable to initiate legislation.

The European Parliament and the Parliament of a sovereign state are NOT the same

 The ‘power’ within the EU is reserved almost solely for the executive arm of the EU; The European Commission. The commission avows itself to “neither seek, nor take, from any government, institution, body, office or entity” So the democratically elected European Parliment and the democratically elected UK Parliament have virtually no say in the proposal of new EU wide legislation.

The commission is appointed by the European Council, which is made up of the heads of the member states.  Consequently, the appointment of the commissioners is usually down to inter nation power plays. Our MEP’s can propose commissioners, but the council can choose to ignore this.

So, our MEP’s in the European Parliament have very little power and have virtually no say in the legislative nature of the EU.

Now do you understand why the EU is viewed as undemocratic?

Finally, do you require any other clarification on my post from earlier, or do you agree with what I said?

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

I get the theoretical arguments about this awful, undemocratic bureaucracy in Brussels.

But I tend to prefer empirical evidence to theory.

In practice, what laws has it imposed on us that you wouldn't have wanted?

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA

I get the theoretical arguments about this awful, undemocratic bureaucracy in Brussels.

But I tend to prefer empirical evidence to theory.

In practice, what laws has it imposed on us that you wouldn't have wanted?

Billy

To be clear, I’ve not mentioned anything about laws imposed by the EU in my previous note. I was challenging foxbats view that the EU legislative practices are democratic. They’re not.

I can’t pretend to know all 12,000+ EU regulations that are presently mandated within the U.K. From the ones I do know, some I’m happy with and some not. For example, I’ve no problem with the climate change directive nor the working time directive. However, I’m much less comfortable with the child benefit for migrant workers law,  the VAT on energy bills law, rules on state aid and EU public procurement rules.

However, this isn’t really the issue. The point is that all of these legislative rules are imposed by a commission that none of us vote for, they have no manifesto, have few (if any) independent policies and are largely beholden to individual heads of state with Germany and France having the largest influence. Additionally, not one of these laws couldn’t be introduced by our own democratically elected government.

Whilst I’d agree that there’s a huge amount of nonsense spread about the EU, the myth that it’s a democratic yet benign influence on U.K. laws and legislation is just that. A myth.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Appreciate your reply HA, I really do. You are actually the only person so far that has highlighted potential benefits, which I agree are potential benefits.

However, like you said, these things are also possible whilst still in the EU, although they may be more difficult to achieve. Public ownership and Lower VAT rates could be looked into right now, but a Tory government certainly wouldn't do these things, and it would be difficult for Labour unless they win an election with a majority.

These, for me, point to how Brexit has been used to deceive the majority of Brexiteers; the falsehood that all problems are caused by EU, and are somehow not political decisions made by the UK government. Privatisation, higher VAT, austerity - all choices made by the government; nothing to do AT ALL with the EU.

Thanks Bob

Just a small point of order though. While public ownership could be looked into now, realistically it could never, ever happen while we’re members. For the railways for example, EU rules forbid wholesale ownership of the whole infrastructure. What this means is that the UK government could own the trains, but would be unable to own the infrastructure. In addition, EU procurement rules (which are being tightened in 2023) dictate that all government contracts over a financial threshold, must be granted via an EU wide tender. Consequently, it’s impossible for the government to own all parts of the UK rail network. Some years ago, the French (I think) government tried to bypass this legislation by creating ‘fake’ private companies that were actually owned by the state and awarding these companies contracts. The EU soon got wind of this, forced them to dismantle the contract awards and subsequently took over the procurement to ensure no rules were broken.

[SydneyRover]

Today's The Times take on the the 2 week deadline, nothing!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/

[SydneyRover]

The 2 week deadline doesn't appear to concern The Tele either, I can't see it mentioined anywhere!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/

[Not Now Kato]

Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says, "I'll have a pint of beer, please." The barman pulls a pint, then throws it all over Farage.


'What did you do that for?' says Farage.


'Because you're in a metaphor which illustrates the stupidity of asking for something, but not stipulating how you wanted it delivered. '


'OK then... I'll have a pint -- this time in a glass!' says Farage.


'You can't ask again!' says the barman.


'Why not?' snivelled Farage.


'Democracy.' says the barman.

[bobjimwilly]

If you look at the original poll for this thread, which closed in December, only 11% of people at the time wanted no deal. Very interesting.

[IDM]

Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says, "I'll have a pint of beer, please." The barman pulls a pint, then throws it all over Farage.


'What did you do that for?' says Farage.


'Because you're in a metaphor which illustrates the stupidity of asking for something, but not stipulating how you wanted it delivered. '


'OK then... I'll have a pint -- this time in a glass!' says Farage.


'You can't ask again!' says the barman.


'Why not?' snivelled Farage.


'Democracy.' says the barman.

Love it.!!