Brexit deal

[Filo]

What's wrong with Bentley West End?

It’s in Bentley 😀

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

Now YOU are building up straw men. What IS it with you folk that you have to invent an enemy to fight against?

I didn't say that tin baths and outside shit houses were the rule in the 60s. I said they existed. And they were widely accepted. As were institutionalised racism. Homophobia. Drink driving. Shocking levels of infant mortality and adult life expectancy. A moribund economy.

I'm saying you have an odd outlook if you think 60s society is one we should idolise.

In fact, worse than idolise. What YOU want to do is to impose it on a younger generation that despises it.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, you've used the strawman tactic against me in this whole Brexit debate.

I've said all along that we should respect a democratic vote and carry it out. You have constantly rejected my point and countered it by questioning why I believe we will be better of financially by leaving the EU!

In reality, I never said we would. I've HOPED we would, and still do. I've presented positive opinions about life following Brexit because I believe in looking forward with a positive attitude, as in my opinion to go against the vote would be more disastrous than any struggles we might face following Brexit.

[albie]

Back to the deal, and some doubted whether the plan was to weaken workers rights and environmental safeguards.

Here is the FT story (FT website is behind a paywall);
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHyH_QYWsAAuq1d.jpg

Looks like posh boy Johnson speaks with forked tongue!

[scawsby steve]

SS.

Now YOU are building up straw men. What IS it with you folk that you have to invent an enemy to fight against?

I didn't say that tin baths and outside shit houses were the rule in the 60s. I said they existed. And they were widely accepted. As were institutionalised racism. Homophobia. Drink driving. Shocking levels of infant mortality and adult life expectancy. A moribund economy.

I'm saying you have an odd outlook if you think 60s society is one we should idolise.

In fact, worse than idolise. What YOU want to do is to impose it on a younger generation that despises it.

Firstly, you're in the wrong thread. Also, if you think my outlook is odd, you seriously need to start watching some documentaries about the 60s on BBC2, and the history channel, because your knowledge of social history really is shocking.

As regards the younger generation despising the 1960s, I don't know any that do, and why would they? Who wouldn't swap unemployment for full employment, streets full of drugs, violence, guns and knives for streets that were so safe that young kids went to school and back on their own?

The only generation that despises the 1960s is yours.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

You claim you want us to get behind Brexit and unite to move the country on. Yet when I tell you the Brexit that I would accept, you call me a liar.

Odd contradiction. Almost like you WANT the other side to be a demon that you can define yourself against.

[Bentley Bullet]

.......And there you go again!

[BillyStubbsTears]

What? Pointing out facts?

[Bentley Bullet]

What facts? The fact that I called you a liar? When?

[BillyStubbsTears]

You said you didn't believe what I said. Therefore, you were saying that in your opinion I was lying.

Pretty simple logic.

[Bentley Bullet]

What a load of b*llocks! I thought Rovers were in for a resounding victory today, so because they didn't play does that mean I'm a liar?

[Glyn_Wigley]

No, just shit at logic.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's a really shite analogy BB.

It wasn't about a hope of something that was going to happen.

I gave you my opinion. You said you didn't believe that was my actual opinion. Therefore you were accusing me of deliberately saying something that wasn't true AKA lying.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST just because I believe your opinion is a shite one doesn't make you a liar, it just means I think you are wrong.

Just because you said in one breath that you would respect the result of another referendum even if resulted in leave, and that would be the end of it, and in the next breath said you would only accept a Norway style deal, to me, suggests that you're more confused than lying. Now, if you were to refute that now, would suggest that I'm wrong and you might be a liar.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I didn't ever say that I would only accept a Norway deal.

I said I wouldn't accept the very hard Brexit that we are careering towards as being the genuine democratic choice in 2016. Because it wasn't.

I've made this very clear on numerous occasions, but since you are still struggling, I'll spell it out. Again.

My opinion is that a Norway deal would have been a compromise that could have achieved broad acceptance in 2017. I don't think it would have been good, but it would probably have been the least bad outcome, given the shit tip we'd pitched up on.

That option was taken away once Brexit became the preserve of only the Right wing of our politics. They rejected that option outright,saying it wouldn't be Brexit. (Why they didn't say that BEFORE the vote, I'll leave for you to figure out).

Where we currently are is that the far Right of our politicians have insisted that the 2016 vote be interpreted, by them,as meaning a far harder exit than anything that was ever seriously discussed in 2016.

I don't accept that as being a fair democratic decision. Given that the Norway deal isn't available, I want a referendum between Johnson's deal and Remain.

If the country votes for Johnson's deal, I will accept that. Because people will have expressed a preference for a specific leave deal.

How you infer confusion from that, or a lack of respect for democracy is beyond me.

Doubtless this will now spiral into the usual quagmire of obfuscation and unsupported assertion.

[Bentley Bullet]

 I'm gonna start calling you Worzel. You've ranted on, completely ignoring my post (5072), and typically in strawman fashion completely veered off from the point.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

We've been through the points you raise in that post as naseum over the years.

They issue is that there isn't a credible economist anywhere who thinks we'll be better off after leaving. Your hope is meaningless in that context. I fully accept that you hope we'll be fine, but in issues as serious as this, hope isn't much help. I don't mean that as an insult. I'm just genuinely bemused as to what other existential decision folk would trust to hope, when there's a welter of credible expert opinion pointing in the opposite direction.

But as I predicted, you've gone off on a different tack after accusing me of lying and being confused.

[Bentley Bullet]

Worzel, you're unbelievable. I'll give you one more chance to get your head around post 5072.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It says a lot about someone's mindset when the most important thing they have in mind is what names to call other people.

[wilts rover]

BST, you've used the strawman tactic against me in this whole Brexit debate.

I've said all along that we should respect a democratic vote and carry it out. You have constantly rejected my point and countered it by questioning why I believe we will be better of financially by leaving the EU!

In reality, I never said we would. I've HOPED we would, and still do. I've presented positive opinions about life following Brexit because I believe in looking forward with a positive attitude, as in my opinion to go against the vote would be more disastrous than any struggles we might face following Brexit.

The major problem with that - as has been said dozens of times - is defining what IT is. As you didn't vote to leave then how do you know your version of Brexit is the same as selby, bkpool, steve and the others who did?

Johnson, Gove, Rabb, Cummings & the ERG now say this deal is their version of Brexit. The DUP & Farage say it isn't Brexit. Less than 20% of the public think it is a good deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-boris-johnson-delay-article-50-opinion-poll-a9172051.html

So who here is not respecting the result of the referendum? Johnson and his merry band - or Farage, the DUP & the public?

[Bentley Bullet]

They are all respecting the result of the referendum because they insist we must leave, by whatever means. People who want to remain are not respecting the result of the referendum.

[DonnyOsmond]

They are all respecting the result of the referendum because they insist we must leave, by whatever means. People who want to remain are not respecting the result of the referendum.

"Whatever means" wasn't on the what was sent out. They said they'd get the best possible deal. What's wrong with holding that to account, not wanting to crash out (which wasn't part of the ref)?

[Glyn_Wigley]

They are all respecting the result of the referendum because they insist we must leave, by whatever means. People who want to remain are not respecting the result of the referendum.

"Whatever means" wasn't on the what was sent out. They said they'd get the best possible deal. What's wrong with holding that to account, not wanting to crash out (which wasn't part of the ref)?

'By whatever means' would also cover the UK declaring war on the EU but no doubt that would be deemed to be respecting the referendum too.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think we've finally got to the core of the problem.

[SydneyRover]

They are all respecting the result of the referendum because they insist we must leave, by whatever means. People who want to remain are not respecting the result of the referendum.

"Whatever means" wasn't on the what was sent out. They said they'd get the best possible deal. What's wrong with holding that to account, not wanting to crash out (which wasn't part of the ref)?

No Answer was the stern reply. 

[Padge_DRFC]

Nobody dares mention their main reason for voting leave as they'd be accused of being a racist.

I don't want open borders. There I said it.

It will probably now be easier for the skilled Indian Doctor or Japanese scientist to get in now rather than taking preference over EU citizens.

[DonnyOsmond]

Nobody dares mention their main reason for voting leave as they'd be accused of being a racist.

I don't want open borders. There I said it.

It will probably now be easier for the skilled Indian Doctor or Japanese scientist to get in now rather than taking preference over EU citizens.

Aye and nurses, because they'll get through that £30K immigration threshold.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Hence why a value cap is the wrong way to go. A skills cap works far, far better.

I disagree on that being everyone's reason for voting leave, it isnt. But for some yes it was and it remains an issue.

Was talking with friends on this a few weeks back and the question posed really is how do you define which internationals offer more than others before they get here?  It's difficult. 

Also interesting that Dianne Abbott was saying this morning about making it easier for people to come here.  I'm not sure how you do that given how complicated an issue it is.

[SydneyRover]

I agree a skills based points system that changes with the needs of the country which what is used in Australia, there is also a business migration scheme where a certain amount of money is required to be invested along with the employment of X munber of people which needs strong oversight.
A family reunion migration system runs along side this as well as our notorious refugee policy. Our minister for torture has too much power over visas and has been caught out a few time doing favours for mates.

[SydneyRover]

Curry with right wing politics night every of the week not just Thursdays!

JD Wetherspoon has been accused of breaching the Companies Act after failing to seek shareholder approval for spending on almost 2m pro-leave beer mats before the 2016 EU referendum.

The pub chain spent £94,856 during the referendum campaign, comprising £18,000 on 1.5m “Brexit beer mats”, £8,400 on a further 200,000 mats, and £68,186 on another 200,000 mats, 5,000 posters and 500,000 booklets, Electoral Commission records show.

Legal experts said shareholder approval was necessary because the spending constituted political expenditure under the 2006 legislation.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/27/jd-wetherspoon-may-have-breached-law-over-19m-brexit-beer-mats

just for you bp