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April 22, 2019, 01:28:26 PM

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Which do you prefer?

PM/EU Deal
9 (8.3%)
Hard Brexit/clean break
26 (24.1%)
No Deal Brexit
12 (11.1%)
2nd Referendum poss Overturn Brexit
58 (53.7%)
Anything else Brexit
3 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 106

Voting closed: December 13, 2018, 06:57:46 PM

Author Topic: Brexit deal  (Read 42694 times)

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SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3150 on April 11, 2019, 11:49:07 PM by SydneyRover »
Yeah, like you lot keep beefing about it was only 52% of the poll who voted for leave but are happy enough with a single vote win in parliament.
How long does the Brexit referendum result stay relevant?
Considering what we know now about what can actually be agreed, the consequences of no deal, how many brexiteers have died since 2016 and how many more remain votes have come of age, the fact all polls show remain would now win and the fact MP's are changing their minds almost daily about Brexit?
Just a guess here bj but as the majority of brexiteers seem to be old white gammon most of em may be in cardiac arrest over dealing with JC and No-deal kicked into touch.

If you can't come on this forum without making abusive comments like that, then I suggest you just leave the forum, take your bigoted, biased opinions with you, and don't f*cking come back.

There's a touch of hypocrisy in that post.

Oh, I'd forgotten all about you, Iberian Red
.



Dont worry fella, that will be an age thing.

Don't worry about me old lad, you just get on with what you're best at, kissing BST's arse.

Guess the author:

Quote
If you can't come on this forum without making abusive comments like that, then I suggest you just leave the forum, take your bigoted, biased opinions with you, and don't f*cking come back.

So you don't think I should respond to someone trying to take the p*ss out of my age, something that a few of you on here are quite smart at doing?

If someone attacks me, I attack back.

Spoken like a true hypocrite.

"Thick", "stupid", "can't write their own name", "pensioners with zimmer frames", "old white gammon", "soon be having cardiac arrests", "will be dead by now", "coffin dodgers".

Just a few of the many insults hurled at Brexit voters on this forum and many other forums over the last 2 years; and you call me abusive and hypocritical?

White gammon?

Where did you pull that one from?

Proper snowflake!

I don't like telling tales out of school mate, but it was Sydney Rover.
Incorrect, and for the record I wrote 'old white gammon'
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 11:52:54 PM by SydneyRover »

DonnyOsmond

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3151 on April 12, 2019, 07:05:04 AM by DonnyOsmond »
I would take a guess the majority of Brexit voters voted that way because of the leave campaign and the actual lies they were told. The politicians in the Leave camp also stated we would get a great deal with the EU, and from recollection none of them endorsed leaving on WTO terms. So when Brexit votes say, "but we voted to leave regardless" that's no strictly true now, is it.

No but let's not let facts get in the way of leave voters points.

Ldr

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  • Posts: 575
Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3152 on April 12, 2019, 03:47:35 PM by Ldr »
I would take a guess the majority of Brexit voters voted that way because of the leave campaign and the actual lies they were told. The politicians in the Leave camp also stated we would get a great deal with the EU, and from recollection none of them endorsed leaving on WTO terms. So when Brexit votes say, "but we voted to leave regardless" that's no strictly true now, is it.

No but let's not let facts get in the way of leave voters points.

Nope BJW

scawsby steve

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3153 on April 12, 2019, 09:04:21 PM by scawsby steve »
Yeah, like you lot keep beefing about it was only 52% of the poll who voted for leave but are happy enough with a single vote win in parliament.
How long does the Brexit referendum result stay relevant?
Considering what we know now about what can actually be agreed, the consequences of no deal, how many brexiteers have died since 2016 and how many more remain votes have come of age, the fact all polls show remain would now win and the fact MP's are changing their minds almost daily about Brexit?
Just a guess here bj but as the majority of brexiteers seem to be old white gammon most of em may be in cardiac arrest over dealing with JC and No-deal kicked into touch.

If you can't come on this forum without making abusive comments like that, then I suggest you just leave the forum, take your bigoted, biased opinions with you, and don't f*cking come back.

There's a touch of hypocrisy in that post.

Oh, I'd forgotten all about you, Iberian Red
.



Dont worry fella, that will be an age thing.

Don't worry about me old lad, you just get on with what you're best at, kissing BST's arse.

Guess the author:

Quote
If you can't come on this forum without making abusive comments like that, then I suggest you just leave the forum, take your bigoted, biased opinions with you, and don't f*cking come back.

So you don't think I should respond to someone trying to take the p*ss out of my age, something that a few of you on here are quite smart at doing?

If someone attacks me, I attack back.

Spoken like a true hypocrite.

"Thick", "stupid", "can't write their own name", "pensioners with zimmer frames", "old white gammon", "soon be having cardiac arrests", "will be dead by now", "coffin dodgers".

Just a few of the many insults hurled at Brexit voters on this forum and many other forums over the last 2 years; and you call me abusive and hypocritical?

White gammon?

Where did you pull that one from?

Proper snowflake!

I don't like telling tales out of school mate, but it was Sydney Rover.
Incorrect, and for the record I wrote 'old white gammon'

So did I.

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3154 on April 12, 2019, 09:37:06 PM by The Red Baron »
Cross-party talks going well, I see.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1116797245893091328?p=v

Although I can see why the Tories are keener on McDonnell and Long-Bailey (who are both close to Corbyn) that Starmer (who isn't). Corbyn is a lifelong Eurosceptic who wants us to leave with something similar (but different) to May's Deal. Starmer would rather have a Second Referendum and Remain.

From what Philip Hammond said today, I can see the Government presenting the May Deal (unamended) for another vote and raising the spectre of European Elections to try and get MPs to back it. The Tory hardliners won't, because they would like to see Farage's party and UKIP do well in the elections. But I don't see enough Labour MPs swinging behind May's Deal either.

Get ready to go out and vote on 23rd May.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3155 on April 12, 2019, 10:06:51 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
I see Hammond has announced today that the Govt has spent £4bn on No Deal planning.

To put that into perspective, HS3 which isn't happening, would have cost £6bn over 6 years.

What a fantastic use of taxpayer's money from a Govt that has told us there isn't a magic money tree.

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3156 on April 13, 2019, 09:46:30 AM by wilts rover »
TRB did you see John McDonnell on Peston, you might wish to re-evalute your reading of that tweet?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-04-11/why-labour-looks-set-to-become-the-referendum-party/

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3157 on April 13, 2019, 10:35:13 AM by The Red Baron »
TRB did you see John McDonnell on Peston, you might wish to re-evalute your reading of that tweet?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-04-11/why-labour-looks-set-to-become-the-referendum-party/

If that's true, you wonder why they have waited so long? Although the Labour Front Bench did support the Kyle / Wilson amendment which effectively says we agree to May's Deal subject to a confirmatory referendum.

I wonder if MV3 could be May plus the Government effectively accepting Kyle / Wilson and maybe Lisa Nandy's amendment allowing the HoC a say in the next phase of negotiations.

Should make for another interesting week when the Commons returns after Easter.

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3158 on April 13, 2019, 08:15:24 PM by wilts rover »
Corbyn's view of where they are: 'it is a challenge to negotiate with a Government that’s collapsing – when you can’t be sure if commitments made by the Prime Minister will survive the week and when Cabinet collective responsibility has given way to collective irresponsibility, with ministers contradicting each other on the airwaves.'

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-insists-theresa-may-must-compromise-on-brexit-red-lines_uk_5cb202a7e4b098b9a2d453c5?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

It's going nowhere slowly isn't it?

If you remember when she asked Corbyn to meet her for talks May also said that if they couldn't come up with a joint deal (ie she couldn't persuade Corbyn how good her deal really was and he had just been reading it wrong) then they should come up with a series of ideas for discussion as indicative votes. So that should come first before MV3.

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3159 on April 15, 2019, 11:26:40 AM by SydneyRover »
Corbyn's view of where they are: 'it is a challenge to negotiate with a Government that’s collapsing – when you can’t be sure if commitments made by the Prime Minister will survive the week and when Cabinet collective responsibility has given way to collective irresponsibility, with ministers contradicting each other on the airwaves.'

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-insists-theresa-may-must-compromise-on-brexit-red-lines_uk_5cb202a7e4b098b9a2d453c5?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

It's going nowhere slowly isn't it?

If you remember when she asked Corbyn to meet her for talks May also said that if they couldn't come up with a joint deal (ie she couldn't persuade Corbyn how good her deal really was and he had just been reading it wrong) then they should come up with a series of ideas for discussion as indicative votes. So that should come first before MV3.
Imagine trying to discuss something with an organisation/person that has by trying to save its own skin has clearly made a massive error of judgement then allowed anyone and everyone to bas**rdise the debate that followed, refused to enter into negotiations with the party that represents a sizeable chunk of voters, spun out time and then enter into what can only be described as emergency talks refusing to change your position.

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3160 on April 15, 2019, 06:41:27 PM by wilts rover »
Have you seen this Sydney? https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/tory-mps-are-freaking-out-in-the-tea-rooms-about-what-the

Just a small flavour of the article here to show how difficult 'negotiating' with Theresa May might be on a lack of trust basis:

there is anger at what is perceived at May’s ongoing dishonesty with Tory MPs and the general public...

“She told us she would not call an election. She called an election. She said no British prime minister could ever agree to a Northern Ireland-only backstop. She agreed to a Northern Ireland-only backstop.

“She told us no deal was better than a bad deal. She would rather do anything but no deal. She told us she had secured legally binding changes to the backstop. Her attorney general confirmed the legal risk was unchanged.

“She told us she would never join a customs union. She told Labour her deal is a customs union in all but name. She told us hundreds of times we would leave on March 29. She stopped us leaving on March 29.

“She told us she could was not prepared to delay Brexit beyond June 30. She agreed a delay to October. She said we could not hold European elections. She moved the day of poll order for the European elections.

“I am sorry to say it, but the simple truth is we cannot trust a word she says.”

And that's from one of her own MP's!!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3161 on April 15, 2019, 09:21:38 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
The not calling an election/calling an election thing I could understand. That's politics - you try to catch your opponent off guard. The rest of it shows that she has no concept of the strength or weakness of her hand, and is prepared to make unconvincing lie and promise after unconvincing lie and promise to get herself out of each tight spot, regardless of whether it just makes things even harder in the long run.

I had her number back in late 2017, when the first major negotiation deadline came and this was agreed.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-42277040

She agreed to no border in Ireland
She agreed to a payment to the EU for things that we'd already signed up to.

And then.

She came back to London and got grilled by Tory backbenchers and said that she'd agreed nothing of the sort.

That was utterly astonishing. I'd never in all my life heard a PM so brazenly and openly lie about something that was so unequivocally established. It was obvious from that moment that she was a terrifyingly weak person.

I just hope to God that we don't have a genuinely existential problem while she is PM. One that requires the ability to threaten and bluff in a believable way. Because nothing she ever says can be believed by anyone.

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3162 on April 16, 2019, 01:07:34 AM by SydneyRover »
Have you seen this Sydney? https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/tory-mps-are-freaking-out-in-the-tea-rooms-about-what-the

Just a small flavour of the article here to show how difficult 'negotiating' with Theresa May might be on a lack of trust basis:

there is anger at what is perceived at May’s ongoing dishonesty with Tory MPs and the general public...

“She told us she would not call an election. She called an election. She said no British prime minister could ever agree to a Northern Ireland-only backstop. She agreed to a Northern Ireland-only backstop.

“She told us no deal was better than a bad deal. She would rather do anything but no deal. She told us she had secured legally binding changes to the backstop. Her attorney general confirmed the legal risk was unchanged.

“She told us she would never join a customs union. She told Labour her deal is a customs union in all but name. She told us hundreds of times we would leave on March 29. She stopped us leaving on March 29.

“She told us she could was not prepared to delay Brexit beyond June 30. She agreed a delay to October. She said we could not hold European elections. She moved the day of poll order for the European elections.

“I am sorry to say it, but the simple truth is we cannot trust a word she says.”

And that's from one of her own MP's!!
Thanks Wilts, you'd now need a endless row of portaloos to hold all the meetings of the tory factions.

This article from Sunday Observer gives an account of labour's position and Donny gets a guernsey!

"The numbers don’t lie: Labour must back a people’s vote to win the next election''

''For a few Bennite nostalgics, the rationale for this hedging is ideological – an attempt to maintain their fantasy of a leftwing Brexit, or Lexit, in which we’d be free from the EU’s falsely ascribed neoliberalism. But for others, it is rooted in wholly reasonable concerns about how a pro-people’s vote agenda would affect Labour’s vote, especially in constituencies where a majority opted to leave. The claim of MPs such as John Mann in Bassetlaw or Caroline Flint in Don Valley is, in essence, that “working-class” Labour voters would abandon us if we were seen to block the 2016 referendum result, thus denying Labour power for generations to come.

It is a powerful, emotional argument, of course, especially in a party born out of the working class. But it is not an argument supported by engagement with the facts. The facts are quite clear and have been repeatedly reinforced by polling evidence and analysis, most recently in the work of Christina Pagel and Christabel Cooper in research funded by University College London. Their polling of over 5,000 people shows that, on average, about two-thirds of Labour voters across the UK voted remain in 2016, ranging from 74% in London to 66% in Scotland and 59% in the Midlands''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/15/numbers-labour-back-peoples-vote-election-party

« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 01:20:54 AM by SydneyRover »

SydneyRover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3163 on April 16, 2019, 12:11:48 PM by SydneyRover »
''How May miscalculated the Brexit numbers game''

''From calling a snap election to offering to step down, the prime minister has not only lost but failed to win support for her deal''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/16/how-may-miscalculated-the-brexit-numbers-game

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3164 on April 17, 2019, 05:04:51 PM by The Red Baron »
Because Brexit hasn't dominated the news agenda, it has given me a chance to think about it. I really think the Hard Brexiteers in the ERG and the DUP are the best allies that Continuity Remain could ever have.

It's their unwillingness to play the long game that gets me. It's been obvious since the end of 2017 that the only way to avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland is to be in a Customs Union and also the Single Market. That's the sort of Brexit I could happily live with.

However, why does that have to be permanent? In ten years time there may be a Border Poll in Northern Ireland and because of demographics the vote may go for a United Ireland. At that point Great Britain could choose to exit the SM and CU and negotiate just the sort of Canada-plus relationship with the EU that the ERG seem to hanker after.

It's odd, because previous generations of Eurosceptics WERE prepared to play the long game. Brexit has really been an issue since we signed up to Maastricht. It took 14 years to get a referendum. Unfortunately now they are not prepared to wait a bit longer to achieve Nirvana.


BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3166 on April 17, 2019, 07:41:08 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
TRB

I keep banging on about this but it doesn't seem.to be sinking in.

It is not about Europe! It's about taking over the Tory party and moving the polical agenda to the Right.

See it through that lens and EVERYTHING that the ERG has done makes perfect sense. 

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3167 on April 17, 2019, 08:18:44 PM by The Red Baron »
TRB

I keep banging on about this but it doesn't seem.to be sinking in.

It is not about Europe! It's about taking over the Tory party and moving the polical agenda to the Right.

See it through that lens and EVERYTHING that the ERG has done makes perfect sense. 

If that's the case all the ERG will inherit is ashes. The Tories will forever be remembered as the party that failed to deliver Brexit. I can't see them winning another election in their current form. Moving to the Right is unlikely to make them more appealing.

I suppose one plus from the fragmentation of politics is that it makes PR more rather than less likely.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3168 on April 17, 2019, 08:26:09 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
TRB

But they have the Tea Party in America as an example. The caused havoc in the Republican party and opened the door for a venal, amoral, traitorous criminal to get to the White House. So anything is possible.

And, of course, if we continue to allow a combination of Big Money, right wing politicians and social media manipulators to screw with our minds in elections...

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3169 on April 17, 2019, 09:09:12 PM by wilts rover »
Female Labour councillor told she is a traitor and should be hung before being physically assuted whilst out campaining.

https://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/female-councillor-on-yarmouth-campaign-trail-punched-1-6002679

What's this about the country not moving to the right again?

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3170 on April 17, 2019, 09:47:50 PM by The Red Baron »
TRB

But they have the Tea Party in America as an example. The caused havoc in the Republican party and opened the door for a venal, amoral, traitorous criminal to get to the White House. So anything is possible.

And, of course, if we continue to allow a combination of Big Money, right wing politicians and social media manipulators to screw with our minds in elections...

I just can't see someone like Trump getting in as PM here. Our system is different to the USA. Everyone thinks of BoJo,  but he'd never get to the final two in a Tory leadership contest.

I do think a wager on Corbyn to be the next PM might pay, although he'll probably be leader of a Grand Coalition or National Government.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3171 on April 18, 2019, 11:05:39 AM by BillyStubbsTears »
TRB

I think you're underestimating the degree of batshittery on the Tory back benches.

157 of them voted for No Deal 3 weeks back.

https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/03/the-94-conservative-mps-who-voted-against-no-deal.html

Johnson would likely only need 100 of them to get into the top two and go into the Tory membership vote. To be honest, I can't see him not getting that many supporters from that list of swivel-eyed flat-earthers.

That's why the bookies have Johnson as clear favourite to replace May.

So,there you go. THAT is the strategy of the ERG. Use the chaos and resentment of Brexit to put into No10 a populist who believes in nothing but power, but who will be controlled by the far-Right of the Tory party.

It's happening. Right under your nose.

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3172 on April 18, 2019, 06:53:25 PM by The Red Baron »
Other flat-earthers are available, of course.

With Johnson I don't think the issue is political. It's more a question that a lot of Tory MPs don't trust him. My view is if he couldn't win the MPs vote in 2016, when he'd played a leading role in the Leave campaign and his stock was high, then he's got little chance now.

If I was to put a bet on a Tory Brexiteer, my money would be on Dominic Raab.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 07:54:29 PM by The Red Baron »

RedJ

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3173 on April 18, 2019, 08:57:12 PM by RedJ »
Christ help us if a man who didn't realise the significance of the Calais crossing gets the keys to No. 10.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3174 on April 18, 2019, 11:19:16 PM by BillyStubbsTears »
Sweet God up a-f**king-bove. We're in an era of political lightweights. Raab is not even a featherweight.

I'm fascinated TRB. What makes you see him as PM material?

The Red Baron

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3175 on April 20, 2019, 01:35:34 AM by The Red Baron »
Sweet God up a-f**king-bove. We're in an era of political lightweights. Raab is not even a featherweight.

I'm fascinated TRB. What makes you see him as PM material?

He's no heavyweight, but he's a Brexiteer and is telegenic. He also doesn't carry around the sort of baggage that Johnson and Gove do. Those three will throw their hats in the ring when the contest comes, but I expect Raab to be last man standing, simply because he's not the other two.

He'll go up against Jeremy Hunt, who ought to win because he's more experienced and is actually a smart politician (please ignore his views, I'm talking about political nous). However the electorate (Tory Party members) will never forgive him for (a) being a Cameroon and (b) voting Remain.

Raab will be next Tory leader. I had previously thought Javid would be, but I understand he has little support amongst MPs or in the National party.

Whether Raab becomes PM or Leader of the Opposition probably depends on the timing of May's departure. If she's removed before the end of June, PM. Otherwise, LoTO.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3176 on April 20, 2019, 08:29:03 AM by BillyStubbsTears »
Is that all you need now TRB.

To look reasonable and be a member of the death cult.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3177 on April 20, 2019, 10:45:39 AM by Glyn_Wigley »
Sweet God up a-f**king-bove. We're in an era of political lightweights. Raab is not even a featherweight.

I'm fascinated TRB. What makes you see him as PM material?

He's no heavyweight, but he's a Brexiteer and is telegenic. He also doesn't carry around the sort of baggage that Johnson and Gove do. Those three will throw their hats in the ring when the contest comes, but I expect Raab to be last man standing, simply because he's not the other two.

He'll go up against Jeremy Hunt, who ought to win because he's more experienced and is actually a smart politician (please ignore his views, I'm talking about political nous). However the electorate (Tory Party members) will never forgive him for (a) being a Cameroon and (b) voting Remain.

Raab will be next Tory leader. I had previously thought Javid would be, but I understand he has little support amongst MPs or in the National party.

Whether Raab becomes PM or Leader of the Opposition probably depends on the timing of May's departure. If she's removed before the end of June, PM. Otherwise, LoTO.

Any new leader of the Tories can be just as easily be Leader Of The Opposition without the need for a General Election, depending on how many Tory MPs quit the party when they become leader!

Donnywolf

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3178 on April 20, 2019, 08:20:13 PM by Donnywolf »
Christ help us if a man who didn't realise the significance of the Calais crossing gets the keys to No. 10.

God what a muppet he would be / IS

To be fair he KNEW we had a crossing Dover to Calais just not the fact that a staggering amount of our imports and exports to/from Europe come that way

Send for Grayling he / she would not let us down. Not this one anyway - the other Muppet would as he has repaeatedly proved. He would not be that bad as a Ref tbh

wilts rover

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Re: Brexit deal
« Reply #3179 on April 21, 2019, 08:53:38 PM by wilts rover »
Fascinating poll in the Sunday Mail today. While Johnston is a clear favourite for the leadership in second place is Nigel Farage.

That's todays conservative party membership for you...