Tory leadership contest

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

There won't be a No Deal Brexit. Full stop. There is a 500-150 majority in Parliament against that.

In fact, probably more than that. All but a slack handful of ideological obsessives know that it would be a catastrophe. What the likes of Rees-Mogg etc are doing is playing to the Tory membership and the gullible 30% of the electorate, so that, when there is a sensible deal or a referendum resulting in Remain, and May has gone they can say, "We told you they'd betray you and they did. You and I both know that No Deal was the best way, and you've been cheated. But I and my colleagues never betrayed you. Vote for us in the future and we'll always be on your side."

[Boomstick]

BFYP

There won't be a No Deal Brexit. Full stop. There is a 500-150 majority in Parliament against that.

At the moment.
You can't rule anything out in these extraordinary times.

[Donnywolf]

I dont mind betting that they do not hold a meaningful vote

After all the Tory Chairman has just said they WILL hold such a vote but - they said that up to the same MINUTE as they pulled it - so my got feeling is they will continue to play for time

I see nowt wrong - even though there is no time - in holding a Vote to see if we want a Peoples Vote ! Sounds bizarre but why not. If it ends 51 49 to NOT have another Vote then thats fine - Leave the EU "as planned".

However if it is the other way then hold a Peoples Vote because even at 51 49 that way it may still produce a Leave Vote again ?

Personally I was too young to remember Suez crisis but I have to say this is the biggest most annoying divisive sh** storm I have ever lived through and like millions of others I am just totally p****d off with all of it (but like a car crash - I cant stop watching / listening) Roll on Saturday for normality

[Donnywolf]

The clusterf**k remains..  the brexit deal won’t get passed, so I can imagine May will ask for a delay to article 50..

Despite the numbers of MPs voting against May, that vote gave her a far bigger majority percentage wise than the last GE and the brexit referendum.!

Indeed - the shadow chancellor's tweet last night about it was laughable given his own party's recent history aswell.  But that is politics.

BST is right a crisis is in play and no deal looms bigger every day.  An extension is likely unless the EU budges, which is likely but how big.

.... and another thing I spotted (Political spin again) 33% ish voted against her - which she says she has noted. In her opening Statement of the 5 days debate she said - and I quote loosely - when we held a Referendum in 1975 on whether to Remain in the Common Market /EEC there were already a huge 33% of those Voting who already wanted to leave !

Spot the difference ? Yes she a politician so 33 one way is trivial 33 the "right" way is huge !

[IDM]

I cannot see how - regardless of what happens with a Commons vote, further EU negotiations, a people’s vote on having another referendum - the article 50 deadline of 29 March will not be delayed.

There simply isn’t enough time to sort anything else out other than no deal, which benefits no one..

[The Red Baron]

Peter Oborne is on the money, as usual.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6489623/PETER-OBORNE-wanted-assassinate-Mrs-Instead-silly-fools-blown-up.html

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP

There won't be a No Deal Brexit. Full stop. There is a 500-150 majority in Parliament against that.

In fact, probably more than that. All but a slack handful of ideological obsessives know that it would be a catastrophe. What the likes of Rees-Mogg etc are doing is playing to the Tory membership and the gullible 30% of the electorate, so that, when there is a sensible deal or a referendum resulting in Remain, and May has gone they can say, "We told you they'd betray you and they did. You and I both know that No Deal was the best way, and you've been cheated. But I and my colleagues never betrayed you. Vote for us in the future and we'll always be on your side."

And that in itself assumes that a number of labour MPs will back her - can't see that right now.

[Donnywolf]

I hereby declare that a) I will not read this Thread or similar ones anywhere and b) I will as of now avoid the News from wherever and whenever it comes

There seems to be no point because it looks like a total s**t storm and the Country is so divided all you get are the same 2 opposing views. Eventually we will Leave and it might eventually prove to be a good thing but we wont know that for ages or we will Leave and it will go t**s up and we may not know that for ages or within a year or two

Or we may eventually get a Second Vote which means we Remain in the EU and we will have to see whether that works or not for us.

Personally I now DONT CARE one way or another now - so I will stick to Football

[IDM]

Hear hear.!  There is f**k all we can do about it unless there is another vote..

Let’s give Scunthorpe a good beating on Saturday and look forward to a happy Christmas.!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Peter Oborne is on the money, as usual.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6489623/PETER-OBORNE-wanted-assassinate-Mrs-Instead-silly-fools-blown-up.html

Good article TRB.

Oborne raises a point that I pondered years ago but have totally forgotten until now. That Europe may well end up splitting the Tory party like it did the Labour party in the 70s/80s.

That raises a fascinating possibility.

Both main parties are horribly split between their extreme and centrist factions.

Isn't this the time that British politics could finally grow up? Have both the Labour and Tory parties split into two and have PR?

The conventional British political wisdom is that the main parties must not split, as that just gives power to the other side on a plate. Like in the 1980s, when Thatcher had 100+ majorities despite having 60% of the elctorate voting against her.

But what if BOTH Labour and the Tories split at the same time? And you ended up with 5 parties in England (Corbyn Hard Left, Blairite centre-left, Lib Dems, Ken Clarke-type centre-right and Rees-Mogg/Farage far right).

The next election would be a free-for all, but broadly, they'd all win 10-25% of the seats. No single party would win a majority or anything close to it. And there'd be a coalition. And there'd be a move towards PR.

if I were Rees-Mogg or Chukka Umunna, I'd be having a quiet word with the other side right now to explore that possibility. Both of those are in parties that they can never properly control. Both of them (and probably the country) would have a lot to gain by them acting together.

[drfchound]

I hereby declare that a) I will not read this Thread or similar ones anywhere and b) I will as of now avoid the News from wherever and whenever it comes

There seems to be no point because it looks like a total s**t storm and the Country is so divided all you get are the same 2 opposing views. Eventually we will Leave and it might eventually prove to be a good thing but we wont know that for ages or we will Leave and it will go t**s up and we may not know that for ages or within a year or two

Or we may eventually get a Second Vote which means we Remain in the EU and we will have to see whether that works or not for us.

Personally I now DONT CARE one way or another now - so I will stick to Football

I reckon that sums up the way lots of people are thinking at present.

[The Red Baron]

Peter Oborne is on the money, as usual.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6489623/PETER-OBORNE-wanted-assassinate-Mrs-Instead-silly-fools-blown-up.html

Good article TRB.

Oborne raises a point that I pondered years ago but have totally forgotten until now. That Europe may well end up splitting the Tory party like it did the Labour party in the 70s/80s.

That raises a fascinating possibility.

Both main parties are horribly split between their extreme and centrist factions.

Isn't this the time that British politics could finally grow up? Have both the Labour and Tory parties split into two and have PR?

The conventional British political wisdom is that the main parties must not split, as that just gives power to the other side on a plate. Like in the 1980s, when Thatcher had 100+ majorities despite having 60% of the elctorate voting against her.

But what if BOTH Labour and the Tories split at the same time? And you ended up with 5 parties in England (Corbyn Hard Left, Blairite centre-left, Lib Dems, Ken Clarke-type centre-right and Rees-Mogg/Farage far right).

The next election would be a free-for all, but broadly, they'd all win 10-25% of the seats. No single party would win a majority or anything close to it. And there'd be a coalition. And there'd be a move towards PR.

if I were Rees-Mogg or Chukka Umunna, I'd be having a quiet word with the other side right now to explore that possibility. Both of those are in parties that they can never properly control. Both of them (and probably the country) would have a lot to gain by them acting together.

IMO a realignment of the parties, accompanied by the introduction of PR (single transferable vote) is long overdue. Bring it on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Agreed. I've agreed with that for many years, but never before seen a way that ot could come about. This is a once in a century chance to re-align our politics for the better.

[Axholme Lion]

Agreed. I've agreed with that for many years, but never before seen a way that ot could come about. This is a once in a century chance to re-align our politics for the better.

One outcome of this show and the fact that all sides have let people down,could be that people actually start to vote for parties which they believe in and hopefully destroy the LibLabCon conspiracy.
If there is no Brexit I predict a labour win at the next GE, but huge gains on the tories by the likes of UKIP, until a viable alternative emerges, and the country going up s**t creek.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Agreed. I've agreed with that for many years, but never before seen a way that ot could come about. This is a once in a century chance to re-align our politics for the better.

One outcome of this show and the fact that all sides have let people down,could be that people actually start to vote for parties which they believe in and hopefully destroy the LibLabCon conspiracy.
If there is no Brexit I predict a labour win at the next GE, but huge gains on the tories by the likes of UKIP, until a viable alternative emerges, and the country going up s**t creek.

Arron Banks has gome home and taken his money with him. UKIP are potless.

[Donnywolf]

Agreed. I've agreed with that for many years, but never before seen a way that ot could come about. This is a once in a century chance to re-align our politics for the better.

One outcome of this show and the fact that all sides have let people down,could be that people actually start to vote for parties which they believe in and hopefully destroy the LibLabCon conspiracy.
If there is no Brexit I predict a labour win at the next GE, but huge gains on the tories by the likes of UKIP, until a viable alternative emerges, and the country going up s**t creek.

All it needs is PR in some form or another and the extremism either way would be avoided. I am a great fan of it now - and it means every vote should count as equally as every other vote - again that should appeal to all those who say there is no point in me voting as Lab or Con always win this Seat

Its a great concept and although I am guessing it might have avoided the mess we have been in for the last 2 years (Oops just realised I said earlier that I would not read any more stuff - but at least Ive kept the News off)

[BillyStubbsTears]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

[Axholme Lion]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

At the moment there's no-one worth wasting a vote on. LibLabCon is a waste of time, none of them will change anything ever.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

At the moment there's no-one worth wasting a vote on. LibLabCon is a waste of time, none of them will change anything ever.

Tend to agree a little at the moment, it would be a huge vote of who's least bad....

[Axholme Lion]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

At the moment there's no-one worth wasting a vote on. LibLabCon is a waste of time, none of them will change anything ever.

Tend to agree a little at the moment, it would be a huge vote of who's least bad....

I would vote for a party who would seriously make an effort to cut immigration.
Stop the PC zealots from taking over every aspect of daily life.
Use only British manufacturing where possible for ALL government projects.
Raise pensions to a decent level.
Look after the NHS in return for a cut in wastefulness.
Re-nationalise the railways and all utilities.
Re-arm our armed forces with good quality equipment.
Leave NATO and stop interfering in the business of other nations.

A few of my requirements which no-one will fulfil.

[RoversAlias]

Sounds like the American President is more up your street based on those policy desires.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Sounds like the American President is more up your street based on those policy desires.

Nah, he wants to cuts taxes and spend less. Which looks to be the exact opposite of all that.

[Donnywolf]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

At the moment there's no-one worth wasting a vote on. LibLabCon is a waste of time, none of them will change anything ever.

Apart from my Reply # 105 above. THAT would change things - but dont take my word for it - just Google and see the difference it COULD make to our shattered "democracy"

[IDM]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

At the moment there's no-one worth wasting a vote on. LibLabCon is a waste of time, none of them will change anything ever.

Tend to agree a little at the moment, it would be a huge vote of who's least bad....

I would vote for a party who would seriously make an effort to cut immigration.
Stop the PC zealots from taking over every aspect of daily life.
Use only British manufacturing where possible for ALL government projects.
Raise pensions to a decent level.
Look after the NHS in return for a cut in wastefulness.
Re-nationalise the railways and all utilities.
Re-arm our armed forces with good quality equipment.
Leave NATO and stop interfering in the business of other nations.

A few of my requirements which no-one will fulfil.

You’re about 80 odd years out with that philosophy.. wonder which minority, or set of folks you don’t like, you would have to suffer to pay for all that.??

Leave NATO.? The mind boggles..

[Axholme Lion]

UKIP are a busted flush. When you have Farage quitting because they have gone too far to the xenophobic extreme, you know they've dropped off a cliff.

They wouldn't win a seat. Although they could pick up 5-6% of the vote and harm the Tories.

At the moment there's no-one worth wasting a vote on. LibLabCon is a waste of time, none of them will change anything ever.

Tend to agree a little at the moment, it would be a huge vote of who's least bad....

I would vote for a party who would seriously make an effort to cut immigration.
Stop the PC zealots from taking over every aspect of daily life.
Use only British manufacturing where possible for ALL government projects.
Raise pensions to a decent level.
Look after the NHS in return for a cut in wastefulness.
Re-nationalise the railways and all utilities.
Re-arm our armed forces with good quality equipment.
Leave NATO and stop interfering in the business of other nations.

A few of my requirements which no-one will fulfil.

You’re about 80 odd years out with that philosophy.. wonder which minority, or set of folks you don’t like, you would have to suffer to pay for all that.??

Leave NATO.? The mind boggles..

You may mock, but I think you would find there are a lot more people out there who would agree with me than you would like to think.

[IDM]

Mock.??

In a society of what, 60 or 70 million people there will always be some who veer to the extremes of political views.. sometimes more than others..

Doesn’t make them right though..

[Axholme Lion]

Mock.??

In a society of what, 60 or 70 million people there will always be some who veer to the extremes of political views.. sometimes more than others..

Doesn’t make them right though..

What was extreme in the policies I suggested? I would have said common sense poilicies that Joe Soap would vote for. The problem is that everytime anyone starts to get anywhere with the like they are trashed by the MSM,MI5,Special Branch etc.

[SydneyRover]

Mock.??

In a society of what, 60 or 70 million people there will always be some who veer to the extremes of political views.. sometimes more than others..

Doesn’t make them right though..

Profile of the Sociopath
Glibness and Superficial Charm.
Manipulative and Conning. They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. ...
Grandiose Sense of Self. ...
Pathological Lying. ...
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. ...
Shallow Emotions. ...
Incapacity for Love.
Need for Stimulation.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Mock.??

In a society of what, 60 or 70 million people there will always be some who veer to the extremes of political views.. sometimes more than others..

Doesn’t make them right though..

What was extreme in the policies I suggested? I would have said common sense poilicies that Joe Soap would vote for. The problem is that everytime anyone starts to get anywhere with the like they are trashed by the MSM,MI5,Special Branch etc.

Joe Public might vote for it. Would he want to pay for it as well?

[Axholme Lion]

Mock.??

In a society of what, 60 or 70 million people there will always be some who veer to the extremes of political views.. sometimes more than others..

Doesn’t make them right though..

What was extreme in the policies I suggested? I would have said common sense poilicies that Joe Soap would vote for. The problem is that everytime anyone starts to get anywhere with the like they are trashed by the MSM,MI5,Special Branch etc.

Joe Public might vote for it. Would he want to pay for it as well?

He might as well. He pays for everything and everyone in the world already for no benefit to ourselves.