Electric Cars - a serious logistical question

[idler]

The Miller Homes estate that my daughter has just moved into has a charging point at every house.
I suppose the problem then will be houses with three or four adults driving four cars at the one address.

[Axholme Lion]

I know f**k all about cars but could they not make batteries that charge themselves using the kinetic energy generated by the axles?

I'd have thought the simplest solution wold be to have an easily inserted/removable battery arrangement in the car. You then have two batteries - one plugged in, the other is fully charged and (say) in the boot. When the plugged in one dies (or more likely, your car tells you it needs changing), you then swap the batteries over so that you're now instantly fully charged again. Whilst driving on the second battery you take the first battery to something akin to a 'petrol station' where you swap your dead battery for a fully charged up one, just paying for the power in the new battery - which is then put in the boot ready to swap when the plugged-in battery dies, and so on. It would mean no hanging about waiting for the car itself to charge, just plug in a new battery and go. It also does away with the need for charging points. It recycles the batteries themselves as the empty ones the 'petrol station' gets are recharged by them ready to be sold on, probably the next day. It's like how calor gas is sold - if you give the gas seller an empty bottle, they only charge you for the gas in the bottle they give you, not the gas plus the bottle which is what you'd have to pay for if you didn't give them an empty.

Having said all that, I've no idea how big or heavy such a battery would be, so I don't know how practicable an idea having swappable batteries would be. Plus, it'd mean all the car manufacturers agreeing on a standard battery size and fitting attachment to make them be completely interchangable - but that could be dictated to them from above if necessary.

I thought exactly the same as this myself. The person who can turn this idea into reality will become a billionaire, or be assassinated by the oil companies. Until something like this comes to fruition i'll stick with petrol or diesel. Where I live it's not a realistic option to have a charging point on the wall of your house.

[albie]

It would be good if everyone came back to this thread in 2025!

Here is the plan from all the big players;
https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-INVESTMENT-ELECTRIC/010081ZB3HD/index.html

Looking like a done deal to me.

[Axholme Lion]

It would be good if everyone came back to this thread in 2025!

Here is the plan from all the big players;
https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-INVESTMENT-ELECTRIC/010081ZB3HD/index.html

Looking like a done deal to me.

As long I can get my hands on a Subaru with a boxer engine coupled to awd that is all I will drive.

[Mr1Croft]

I suspect as autonomous driving cars increase with the rate of electric cars, I suspect one possible and feasible end game will be scrapping car ownership altogether and using services like Uber.

You request an Uber (or whatever scheme it may be in 50/60 years time) from your smartphone, the nearest self driving one turns up and takes you to where you need to be.

If we had a driverless road and just had self driving cars, there would be less congestion, less accidents and the AI would be able to calculate exactly when and where would be the best time/place to go and charge up rather than Humans who may think "I can make it 50 mile to next service station even though it only says there is 45 miles left, I'll drive more economically for this next hour".

Obviously we are nowhere near that yet and I suspect hybrids will be more popular than fully electric cars to begin with and they are a more economic choice for consumers to try and phase out fully diesel and petrol engines.

Many manufacturers have tried hydrogen cars (not fuel cells) - they would need filling up like petrol but hydrogen is cheaper than fuel, is in unlimited supply and is much more greener than any electric or petrol/diesel car. However all so far have been so expensive they have never really caught on.

[selby]

  The most important question will be, where, on what, and how  will the tax be levied?

[Bentley Bullet]

You'll probably have to declare an annual odometer reading and then be charged so much per mile. A bit like a gas/electric reading.

[drfchound]

Big black market coming then for winding the meters back.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's a bit last millennium.

Why not just have a chip wirelessly sending the mileage data back to Swansea. With an alert to traffic police if the chip is tampered with.

[Axholme Lion]

I suspect as autonomous driving cars increase with the rate of electric cars, I suspect one possible and feasible end game will be scrapping car ownership altogether and using services like Uber.

You request an Uber (or whatever scheme it may be in 50/60 years time) from your smartphone, the nearest self driving one turns up and takes you to where you need to be.

There's no way I would share a car! You don't know what scruffy tramp has been riding around in it or what they have been doing! I would rather have my own vehicle even if it cost four times as much to run. This is the reason I wouldn't buy a used car or use public transport. I would rather save up and get a new one but keep it for a long time and get my moneys worth out of it.

[auckleyflyer]

Grade2listed in a word heritage site. No off at parking how the fek am I going to charge the thing! Not even allowed to change the garden gate colour??

[RobTheRover]

Ah, finally, an off topic question I actually know stuff about!

I have a PHEV hybrid as a company car (Mercedes C350e) and I am heavily involved in the EV infrastructure debate/solution through my work.

Right, to address some of the points raised.....

Owning and operating an EV is different to owning and operating an ICE (internal combustion engined) vehicle.  As many have said, the key charge points will be at home or work or a leisure/shopping facility, not at a dedicated "petrol station" type arrangement.  If development leans towards this, then there would need to be some commitment from the manufactures to standardise on Fast Charge technology, such as Tesla's Supercharger network, which can deliver energy for 100s of miles of range in around 20 minutes.  Presently, I'm working with a number of organisations (providers and customers) to match up their requirement to innovative solutions.  We are seeing a falling in the cost of the charger technology - a couple of years ago a fast charger unit (Generally up to 50kW) was about £30k to buy and install, this is now down to about £15k.  Most of the public charge points are 7.2kW and take hours to charge an EV, but these decisions were taken on price over practicality - organisations wanted to show their green credentials by supporting EV charging but werent prepared to throw £30k a pop at it, which was fair enough.

Street lighting having integrated charge points is certainly one way to bridge the gap for those with no off-street parking, but there is a real debate going on over trip risk over the cables and who is liable in cases of personal injury.  This only really works where the street lighting is at the kerbside, not at the rear of the footpath too, although there have been some innovative channels designed to take a feed from the lighting column under the footpath and present a charge point at the kerbside.  That opened up another debate on trip hazards over charge point covers left open.....

Charging at public EV points actually carries little risk of your cable being stolen.  The cable locks into the vehicle with the central locking, so even if the charger unit doesnt lock it in at their end (very few do) removing the cable is impossible without cutting the end connector off, rendering it nothing more than a 3m bit of cable worth naff all.

Conductive charging buried in the roads (particularly in locations where vehicles stop regularly, e.g. traffic lights, car parks) began being developed about 2 or 3 years ago.  BMW and Mercedes have these in the pipeline as mats for home use.  Just lay them on your drive, secure them down and just park your car over the top as normal.  Conductive has transfer speed limitations, though, so these need to be worked through, especially with Li-Ion batteries in EVs getting larger and offering greater range.

Glyn's suggestion of removable batteries and charge one whilst using one is a non-starter with current tech, but could be a go-er in the future.  The Li-Ion cells are large and heavy, and in most vehicles are distributed under the floor pan  to spread the additional weight across the chassis and not kill the car's handling.  Imagine driving a car with a quarter ton weight in the boot.  Great fun in the snow and wet!  However, new battery technology is developing at a rapid rate.  Graphene is light, relatively easy to manufacture, can be layered to increase storage density, charges to capacity in minutes rather than hours, and provides rapid discharge rates which are ideal to deliver the instant power to an electric motor to create the torque required to get a 2 ton mass moving.  However, graphene discharges really quickly at full load, so more work to be done.  Expect to see graphene batteries appear in mobile phones first, probably in the next couple of years.  They will be incredibly thin and light and a full charge will take mere minutes.

The infrastructure question is very interesting.  We keep hearing about shortages in electricity and gas when we have a 2beast from the east" type event, and the Tories have banged on about the Energy Trillema and "keeping the lights on".  Security of supply will be a major issue under a no deal Brexit, for example.  International connectors mean we can currently bring power and gas from the near continent within agreed quotas.  This will all be up in the air if we dont sort out a full deal ahead of March 29th.  There is also the issue of the peaky nature of renewable tech, which underlines why we need a diverse mix of generation.  Wind turbines generate when the wind is blowing, not necessarily when demand is there to consume it, so often turbines will have the brakes applied, especially at night.  Nuclear, biomass and gas remain part of the electricity generation mix core, with coal still in use but only now contributing about 6% generation nationally.  However, the current nuclear fleet is rapidly approaching its end of life.  They were built to have a 25 year life and all of them are older than that, which is testament to their owners (mainly EDF) for how they have maintained them well. None of them will be viable in another 10 years.  Hinkley Point C has been funded by the Chinese with a MW strike price of just short of £100.  The market is currently around £60/MW, so this looks incredibly poor value but is the price the government elected to pay to secure the investment.  The project is now forecasting a couple of years delay on completion and  costs have risen by many £millions.  Hitachi have just pulled out of their contract to build more nuclear power stations, and it remains to be seen whether anyone else will step in at these sites.

What is really interesting is the amount of energy that goes into crude oil refinery to create petrol and diesel.  I read a study last year that highlighted that if we kept the existing infrastructure and just stopped oil refinery we would save enough electricity to power 8 million EVs each year.

I could go on, but I wont.  I've probably bored you all pantless already!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting points Rob.

I saw a very interesting presentation through work this week, which raised an issue that I'd never thought about before.

Our electricity network currently serves only about 20% of our total national energy consumption. Gas (mainly for donestic and industrial heating) accounts for about 55-60% and petrol/diesel (mainly for vehicles) most of the other 20-25%.

The point of the presentation was that, if we switch to electric powered vehicles, we will need a significant investment in the electricity delivery network over and above the cost of charging points. Because the current network would be highly overloaded if it had to deliver twice as much power as it currently does.

The improvement to the network can be done, but it will need a big investment. I'm not really following the debate closely but I've certainly not seen anyone discussing that issue.

[RobTheRover]

It's certainly a legitimate concern, Billy. Already in the south west we are seeing restrictions on new connections to grid as the substations are over capacity. Exceeding maximum demand presents a real risk of fire and explosion at the substation, which is why change control DCP161 was brought in about a year ago to introduce penalty charges for exceeding your stated maximum demand (applies to Half Hourly settled non-domestic supplies only)

[RedJ]

Just what I was going to say, Rob.

[Sprotyrover]

One 'Fix' is a power line from Iceland they have a massive over capacity due to Geothermal energy. I Seemtorecall that it's already been planned and will ost £4 Billion to build.

[albie]

Substations will certainly need to be upgraded, but surely that would need to happen anyway.

On the broader question of the overall electricity supplied through the network, maybe it is more an issue of meeting times of peak demand.

Demand for electricity will increase with electric vehicles, but will be offset to some degree by improvements in energy efficiency of appliances in the future.

There is a big shift underway to provide future energy  supply from renewables, because they are cheaper than other methods.
Intermittent production needs storage capacity to level out availability on demand.

The research funding going into battery chemistry and tech is key.
Gains in battery capacity are promoted by the need to increase EV range, but they will also increase static storage capability, and reduce its marginal cost.

The interesting point is how grid balancing will be achieved.
If everyone plugs in at the same time, like the half time cuppa, then a surge in demand needs to be met by despatchable capacity.

The answer is probably battery storage on the supply side, and dynamic pricing to match demand to availabilty of resource.
It will be cheaper to recharge when the resource is fully available, helping to level out the peak demand.

It is worth considering that some electricity demand could be removed from the grid by home storage.
As batteries continue to get cheaper and more powerful, then the economics of home production and use change as well.

The Tesla powerwall, and the Nissan PV plus battery package, are the first offers in this sector.
https://www.nissan.co.uk/experience-nissan/electric-vehicle-leadership/storage-solutions.html

[RobTheRover]

And using the elect ic car as a home energy storage facility so that you can go "off grid" for half an hour when demand is at its peak, then recharge your car overnight.

The whole Demand Side Response (DSR) piece is really interesting. I did a project not too long ago with a council who put a whole load of shipping containers filled with Li-Ion batteries on some unused ground and just filled them at night (cheap, low demand) and sold the energy back to grid between 4pm and 7pm when demand was at its peak and prices higher. Lots of organisation s are currently paid tons of cash every year for either shutting down early when peak demand will outstrip supply, or turn on diesel generators for half an hour instead of drawing grid electricity (its called the STOR scheme)

[Donnywolf]

3 great and informative answers there RTR - thanks

Must admit the last bit made me chuckle - brilliant thinking by them - store it cheap and sell it later at a profit !

[nightporter]

   Wireless charging. 

https://www.engadget.com/2019/02/11/witricity-qualcomm-halo-ev-wireless-charging/

[Filo]

My bos has got a Tesla, just been in it, what a car, and the instant Torque on and elictric car like that is awesome

[albie]

They will come down in price, and have even more range, quite quickly once production scales up.
Here is an interesting summary;
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/23/electric-cars-are-about-to-absolutely-demolish-gasmobiles/

Like I said earlier, see what the choices are by 2025.

[Ldr]

Cars skinned with photo electric cells.....

[Axholme Lion]

They will come down in price, and have even more range, quite quickly once production scales up.
Here is an interesting summary;
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/23/electric-cars-are-about-to-absolutely-demolish-gasmobiles/

Like I said earlier, see what the choices are by 2025.

So it will no longer be possible to drive to anymore games and home in the day if they are more than 120 miles away?

[albie]

Axholme,

You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.

[Axholme Lion]

Axholme,

You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.

My point is that on a drive down to London if I need to refill it's five minutes in the petrol station, whereas how long would it take to charge the car? Surely this would make long one day journeys impossible?

[Filo]

Axholme,

You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.

My point is that on a drive down to London if I need to refill it's five minutes in the petrol station, whereas how long would it take to charge the car? Surely this would make long one day journeys impossible?

A Tesla would route you the best way to get from A to B using the Tesla supercharger network, you put your route into the touch screen on the Tesla and it will work out a route, where you need to stop and how long for, the Telsa will also tell you via an app when your car has enought charge to carry on with your journey

[Axholme Lion]

Axholme,

You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.

My point is that on a drive down to London if I need to refill it's five minutes in the petrol station, whereas how long would it take to charge the car? Surely this would make long one day journeys impossible?

A Tesla would route you the best way to get from A to B using the Tesla supercharger network, you put your route into the touch screen on the Tesla and it will work out a route, where you need to stop and how long for, the Telsa will also tell you via an app when your car has enought charge to carry on with your journey

I think we're a long way off being able to use them in the real world other than for pottering around in it would seem.

[Axholme Lion]

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/environmental-footprint-electric-cars/

Maybe they should be looking at the carbon footprint of smart phones which are a luxury, other than cars which are essential.

[albie]

Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost

Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!