Labour split

[wing commander]

    Me and BST are at complete different ends of the political spectrum but he is absolutely spot on, and in some ways the recent posts on this thread prove it..
    The replies to posts on here in reply to Labours infighting on the media and anti Semitism is that the Tories are far worse on islamiphobia.Thats irrelevant and that's because whether it's right or wrong that's not what the public are seeing on the news..
    What they are seeing on the news is Labour Mp's calling each other liars on a nightly basis,giving free hits out like confetti and that's what needs addressing very very quickly because if your average man on the street who's vote carrys as much wait as anybody's is sat there thinking...This Tory government is rubbish but how can I vote for a party that is at war with itself like this and has been since Corbyn became leader then Labour are goosed..Which is the reason why Labour are doing so badly and make no bones about whatever people say on here they are...
    The Labour left will never again be given such a great opportunity to get into Government, if they don't get into power at the next election then Socialism is finished as a political force and will revert back to objectional politics only..This is there chance and Labour are so far blowing it..

[Glyn_Wigley]

    Me and BST are at complete different ends of the political spectrum but he is absolutely spot on, and in some ways the recent posts on this thread prove it..
    The replies to posts on here in reply to Labours infighting on the media and anti Semitism is that the Tories are far worse on islamiphobia.Thats irrelevant and that's because whether it's right or wrong that's not what the public are seeing on the news..
    What they are seeing on the news is Labour Mp's calling each other liars on a nightly basis,giving free hits out like confetti and that's what needs addressing very very quickly because if your average man on the street who's vote carrys as much wait as anybody's is sat there thinking...This Tory government is rubbish but how can I vote for a party that is at war with itself like this and has been since Corbyn became leader then Labour are goosed..Which is the reason why Labour are doing so badly and make no bones about whatever people say on here they are...
    The Labour left will never again be given such a great opportunity to get into Government, if they don't get into power at the next election then Socialism is finished as a political force and will revert back to objectional politics only..This is there chance and Labour are so far blowing it..

Sadly I fear it's going to take a repeat of the 1983 'longest suicide note in history' election and the subsequent leadership of someone like Kinnock willing to face the militants down and drag the party back to the middle ground.

And in the meantime the most incompetent PM in living history is free to carry on being incompetent, and I struggle to think of any possible successor who is likely to be any different.

[albie]

WingCo,

I don't think you have  understood the coalition that is the Labour Party.

Divisions have always existed below the surface, but with the election of Corbyn as leader a new influx of members has changed the grassroots input.
Whenever a power balance changes, vested interests defend their territory, even to the point of schism.

The creation of a cause, in this case exaggerated allegations of anti semitism, and a deliberate confusion of that with criticism of Israel, is a tool in that internal struggle.
Nothing more, nothing less.

There is an interesting longer article here on the factions, and their stance:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/inevitable-division-politics-and-consequences-of-labour-split/

You say that Labour need to win the next election.
I would like it to happen, but as a Labour supporter I don't think that is a realistic goal, because of the loss of Scottish Labour seats.
A government would need to form on the basis of a partnership, probably with the SNP.

Labour can aim to become the single biggest party.
To do so requires retention of Leave voting seats, no UKIP salami slicing the voter base, and revival of the LibDems in the SW to take seats from the Tories.

Some on here think that Labour needs to win votes from the Tories as a means to become the largest party......it begs the question of the price of winning Tory voters?
Does it mean policy positions that  cause loss of support elsewhere, or not being able to capture the non voting disillusioned.
They are the biggest demographic.

The anti Muslim position within the Tories is not irrelevant, it is central.
For some members, defence of their beliefs involves rejection of  other cultures. That is a non runner in modern Britain.

When Boris J says Muslim women look like "letter boxes", and faces no sanction from the party, it sends out the message that it is OK for the big beasts to use dog whistle racism in political campaigns.
A few minor players might  step down temporarily, to be let back in when the fuss dies down, in order to show willing.

The point is it seeks votes on the basis of assumed bias.
In doing so, it leaves a significant number of voters outside the tent.
It is a strategy with a declining support base.

Membership of the Blues is falling year on year.
Do you not think that the Tories will divide on a factional basis in the near future?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think the key thought that Albie was fumbling towards is that Labour's new membership has beliefs and opinions that don't come remotely close to matching those of the people Labour need to get to vote for them.

And guess which group is wrong.

By the way. Anti-Semitism exaggerated? Here we go again....

[albie]

Exactly the opposite, BST.

Labour can only bring new supporters to vote for the party with a revised policy offer.
You think Labour has to capture Tory votes. Whilst I would welcome that, I think the bigger prize is bringing non voters back in by giving them a stake.

The same old tired pro business assumptions of the Labour hierarchy before 2015 have already failed.
There is no evidence to suggest that the electorate would suddenly want to vote for policies that have been rejected previously.

You cannot seriously believe that the anti-semitism trope is not part of an organised attempt to discredit Labour under Corbyn.
There may well be examples which need to be dealt with, but it is not a widespread issue across Labour as a whole.

In comparison to the racism within the Conservative Party, some of which has been expressed in "hostile environment" policies, it is not in the same league.

There is no suggestion that Labour is proposing racist policy as a manifesto promise.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And the next tired cliche trotted out. 2015 as Year Zero.

Go and have a look at the macro-economic policies that Balls and Milliband were offering in 2015, and compare them to what McDonnell and Corbyn were offering in 2017. You'll not get a fag paper between them.

But that doesn't fit the narrative does it? Corbyn has to be seen as the Hero Who Saved the Soul of the Labour Party.

You want to know where the split has come from? It's from the people on the Left who insist that anyone to the right of them is a Red Tory who needs to be defeated.

[albie]

You are a dab hand at the tired cliche, BST.

So why did the Labour vote increase in 2017?

What was the difference between the 2015 offer and that in 2017?
If you think that the macro-economics was identical, what other policies rang the bell.

I will give you a clue.......Corbyn is not Miliband.
That said, I am not committed to a particular individual, I vote for a policy programme.

The belief that saying the same thing over and over is a viable political strategy is not supported by evidence.
The Labour right is stuck in a timeloop that does not resonate with electors.

This is why the TINGE group with Chuka and Co will disappear into the ethers after the media feeding frenzy dies down.

Questions:
1)
Set out the policy changes you think Labour should make,
2)
and show why you think those changes would be resilient to the methods used by Cambridge Analytica to influence outcomes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

Go on then. What significant policies did Corbyn have in 2017 that Milliband didn't in 2015?

You ask why the Labour vote increased in 2017?

Yes, Corbyn campaigned excellently and managed to pull off a nigh on impossible task of convincing left Leave and Remain supporters that he was their man. But to listen to Momentum, it was all and only about Corbyn.

Do you remember May's personality disintegrating on a daily basis?

And Momentum, ever quick with the deceptive statistic, immediately pointed out that Corbyn had pulled off a miracle because he'd increased the Labour vote so much. I assume you do realise that May (yes, THAT May, the one who couldn't function in public) also significantly increased the Tory vote. Because the truly defining thing about 2017 was the evaporation of UKIP, the movement of their votes to Labour AND the Tories and the fact that for the first time in a generation, in England we were back to effectively bi-partisan politics.

Corbyn has never been popular among Labour voters. Look at the poll figures. No, sorry, you don't do that do you because it's SOOO yesterday.

You ask what policies I would change.

None on the domestic front. I've said that all along. Corbyn's domestic policies are sensible centre-left ones. My problem from the start has been his infantile approach to foreign policy. And the fact that his coterie of closest advisers are (and I'm using the word correctly here, not as a lame insult) Stalinist ideologues. And every single time he opens his mouth on foreign policy issues  (even if it's only to mumble some evasive nonsense) you see why he will never be PM.

I'll campaign for his party at the next election, just like I did in 2017, and 2015, and 2010... But I know in my heart that he'll never get to No10. And the best chance in 80 years for a sensible centre-left Govt will have been pissed away in a naive personality cult that is blind to the man's overwhelming inadequacies.

[wing commander]

That's about as close to the reality as you are going to get BST, Great synopsis of the perception of labour to the man on the street..Labour need to force a change of leadership to stand at the next GE.The public just won't buy into him now, his weakness knows no bounds and it's simply unrecoverable..The question is who on the left of Labour would be the man/woman to bridge the hard left and the centre left???.. I disagree with Albie, I believe the next election is very winnable for Labour,just not under Corbyn..This is the chance that true labour socialists have been waiting for.. Do they have the balls to take it or does the Unions and Momentum want to blindly back Corbyn's Labour into socialist political abyss?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is required reading. Bear in mind before you read it that the author is quite a long way to the Right of the political spectrum. But he prizes honesty, fairness and accuracy above any political leanings. We'd be a far, far better country if more of us took a leaf out of his book.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth