Labour split

[Ldr]

You need to address the mob mentality encouraged by momentum to make the party remotely electable

[wing commander]

   I thought an interview with 2 local labour party foot soldiers in the constituency of a MP who left Labour yesterday summed it up perfectly for me..

  The first was a lady who while disappointed that the mp who she had spent hours posting leaflets for at the election had left, she realised that the party had a real problem that just wasn't been addressed and admired his principles at least in sticking up for his beliefs,she hoped that this would finally kick start the party into realising that if they hoped to be elected they had to reform away from the perception of anti Semitism and inter party bullying and threats...

  Then the young guy sat next to her who might have well had momentum tattooed across his head snarled that he was a traitor,and that he shouldn't show his face around there again..You could see the hate in his eyes...He was just a nasty piece of work,and obviously didn't have a debate in him,it was his way or no way....

   And that for me sums the Labour party up right now,a so called broad church, which its anything but..A absolute car crash of a party run by a leader who is only any good at objection politics and always has been...backed by momentum who take socialism to a level bordering on communism...

   

   

[Glyn_Wigley]

It tells you everything when you find out Derek Hatton's been welcomed back into the Labour Party...

It might be a good time for Channel 4 to take GBH out of the cupboard, dust it down and give it a reshowing.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I'd like a centre left leader to take the reins if that's what makes the party more electable, as long as they keep the majority of socialist domestic policies outlined in the manifest and don't go back on increasing taxes for the rich and corporate world etc.

Depends on your definition of corporate world.  Taxing a lot of big companies and high earners is indirectly negative for low and middle earners.  I don't agree with increasing taxes, I would much rather the rules were changed to clamp down on Amazon et al.  An overall increase just harms all companies, not just the ones who are an issue.

[Ldr]

   I thought an interview with 2 local labour party foot soldiers in the constituency of a MP who left Labour yesterday summed it up perfectly for me..

  The first was a lady who while disappointed that the mp who she had spent hours posting leaflets for at the election had left, she realised that the party had a real problem that just wasn't been addressed and admired his principles at least in sticking up for his beliefs,she hoped that this would finally kick start the party into realising that if they hoped to be elected they had to reform away from the perception of anti Semitism and inter party bullying and threats...

  Then the young guy sat next to her who might have well had momentum tattooed across his head snarled that he was a traitor,and that he shouldn't show his face around there again..You could see the hate in his eyes...He was just a nasty piece of work,and obviously didn't have a debate in him,it was his way or no way....

   And that for me sums the Labour party up right now,a so called broad church, which its anything but..A absolute car crash of a party run by a leader who is only any good at objection politics and always has been...backed by momentum who take socialism to a level bordering on communism...

   

   

Perfectly put

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's the rub BJW.

That's precisely the leader that Labour had pre-Corbyn. The domestic policies were nigh on identical.

The ACTUAL difference between Corbyn and Milliband is that now we have a batshit foreign policy.

The way Momentum spin it is that the world BJ was one in which ever Labour leader was fully signed up to Austerity.

Textbook Marxist propaganda. You re-write history to accuse everyone on your side who's not signed up to the project as a Quisling.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

We should probably change the title to include the Tories.....

It's intriguing how this pans out, how can some Tories and labour leavers work together, what happens at the point they disagree.  For the Tories it's a Brexit problem, for Labour a fundamental overall strategy problem.  Quite interesting and as a group, one more person and they match the Lib Dems for size.....

Could play havoc at the next election.

[DonnyOsmond]

Don't they match Lib Dems now? Both have 11. Labour had one more go this morning.

[MachoMadness]

Aye, although technically "The Independent Group" isn't actually a party - it's a private company. All the MPs are just sitting as independents for now. Interestingly, this means they aren't bound to release who's funding them yet.

[The Red Baron]

We should probably change the title to include the Tories.....

It's intriguing how this pans out, how can some Tories and labour leavers work together, what happens at the point they disagree.  For the Tories it's a Brexit problem, for Labour a fundamental overall strategy problem.  Quite interesting and as a group, one more person and they match the Lib Dems for size.....

Could play havoc at the next election.

It strikes me that the one issue that unites them all is that they want to have a Second Referendum on Brexit. That being the case, shouldn't they all fight by-elections on that issue? If they won, surely it would demonstrate that a Second Referendum was wanted by voters.

[wing commander]

Aye, although technically "The Independent Group" isn't actually a party - it's a private company. All the MPs are just sitting as independents for now. Interestingly, this means they aren't bound to release who's funding them yet.

And that's very telling...I've no doubt that they will form a new party everything is being orchestrated towards that.The Labour mp's planned the defection for maximum impact and today the ex tory mp's did the same before pmq's.I have no doubt that others will do the same from both party's in the coming days..

    I have to say as someone who is totally despondent with the party I support (Tory) yet even more despondent with the terrible way that Labour is being run,i may well welcome this alternative party with open arms,once they fully get going and show me some meat on the bone policy wise..

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Wc I would say many are probably thinking similar....

[bobjimwilly]

Depends on your definition of corporate world.  Taxing a lot of big companies and high earners is indirectly negative for low and middle earners.  I don't agree with increasing taxes, I would much rather the rules were changed to clamp down on Amazon et al.  An overall increase just harms all companies, not just the ones who are an issue.

re: income tax - 45% on income over £150k is far too low. And why should someone on £50k pay the same upper tax as someone on £140k? Plus the jump between basic rate and higher rate is too high; there needs to be higher levels for higher earners but applied in more stages.
re: corporation tax - rules do need to be changed to make sure companies actually pay. yet it's no surprise that the Tories still haven't solved this after almost 10 years!
17% (from 2020) is far too low though, especially as it's regardless of profit. Again, tax rates should be in stages to encourage start-ups and innovation.

How on earth can we fund the NHS, education, policing etc when we keep on reducing taxes?

[Mr1Croft]

If I was Corbyn I'd call their bluff and call another no confidence motion in the Government.

They have all said Corbyn is facilitating a hard Tory brexiters, wonder if they will do the same and support the govt in any confidence motion.

Either way, when the time comes to answer to the voters, the electorate will punish their arrogance.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Corbyn will wait till after May's next Brexit vote defeat. The Labour rebels will still probably vote against May but it give more time for more Tories to resign from the party and then vote against her. It wouldn't surprise me if at least two more (Grieve, Boles) jump ship, best to leave enough time for more to jump before calling another confidence vote.

[The Red Baron]

Corbyn will wait till after May's next Brexit vote defeat. The Labour rebels will still probably vote against May but it give more time for more Tories to resign from the party and then vote against her. It wouldn't surprise me if at least two more (Grieve, Boles) jump ship, best to leave enough time for more to jump before calling another confidence vote.

I agree. There's no point in Corbyn doing anything until May loses another meaningful vote on Brexit. However, given that the Independent Group don't seem keen on calling by-elections in their seats, I wonder how keen they might be to vote in a way that would trigger a General Election.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Corbyn will wait till after May's next Brexit vote defeat. The Labour rebels will still probably vote against May but it give more time for more Tories to resign from the party and then vote against her. It wouldn't surprise me if at least two more (Grieve, Boles) jump ship, best to leave enough time for more to jump before calling another confidence vote.

I agree. There's no point in Corbyn doing anything until May loses another meaningful vote on Brexit. However, given that the Independent Group don't seem keen on calling by-elections in their seats, I wonder how keen they might be to vote in a way that would trigger a General Election.

They'd look complete d**kheads if they supported May after all this though.

[The Red Baron]

Corbyn will wait till after May's next Brexit vote defeat. The Labour rebels will still probably vote against May but it give more time for more Tories to resign from the party and then vote against her. It wouldn't surprise me if at least two more (Grieve, Boles) jump ship, best to leave enough time for more to jump before calling another confidence vote.

I agree. There's no point in Corbyn doing anything until May loses another meaningful vote on Brexit. However, given that the Independent Group don't seem keen on calling by-elections in their seats, I wonder how keen they might be to vote in a way that would trigger a General Election.

They'd look complete d**kheads if they supported May after all this though.

Well yes, but you have to admit it does look like a pantomime horse. Apparently Soubry has been praising George Osborne tonight. I wonder how well that has gone down with the ex-Labour lot?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Or with anyone with so much as a passing acquaintance with basic economics?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyroad.

This is the inevitable outcome of the Referendum.

Our politics is now utterly f**ked and it will be for another generation.

The splits that were kept held together are now tearing apart.

As I keep saying, Putin must be laughing his cock off.

THIS is why he poured money into the Leave campaign.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Corbyn will wait till after May's next Brexit vote defeat. The Labour rebels will still probably vote against May but it give more time for more Tories to resign from the party and then vote against her. It wouldn't surprise me if at least two more (Grieve, Boles) jump ship, best to leave enough time for more to jump before calling another confidence vote.

I agree. There's no point in Corbyn doing anything until May loses another meaningful vote on Brexit. However, given that the Independent Group don't seem keen on calling by-elections in their seats, I wonder how keen they might be to vote in a way that would trigger a General Election.

They'd look complete d**kheads if they supported May after all this though.

Well yes, but you have to admit it does look like a pantomime horse. Apparently Soubry has been praising George Osborne tonight. I wonder how well that has gone down with the ex-Labour lot?

I suspect that it has nothing to do with Labour but more because Osborne edits the London Standard and hates May's guts..!

[Axholme Lion]

George Soros will be funding this little band of saboteurs. If this lot are so keen on a second vote why don't they put there money where their mouth is and call by elections?

[Glyn_Wigley]

George Soros will be funding this little band of saboteurs. If this lot are so keen on a second vote why don't they put there money where their mouth is and call by elections?

Like St Nigel of Farage did when he quit UKIP, and then again when he set up his new party?

[Not Now Kato]

George Soros will be funding this little band of saboteurs. If this lot are so keen on a second vote why don't they put there money where their mouth is and call by elections?

And how, pray, will holding by-elections produce a vote on May's Deal, No Deal or Remain?
 
You need to stop reading the Daily Mail, or is it the Express?

[BillyStubbsTears]

George Soros will be funding this little band of saboteurs. If this lot are so keen on a second vote why don't they put there money where their mouth is and call by elections?

Like St Nigel of Farage did when he quit UKIP, and then again when he set up his new party?

Or Carswell? Or that other non-entity who left the Tories, joined UKIP then vanished without trace in 2017?

[Glyn_Wigley]

George Soros will be funding this little band of saboteurs. If this lot are so keen on a second vote why don't they put there money where their mouth is and call by elections?

Like St Nigel of Farage did when he quit UKIP, and then again when he set up his new party?

Or Carswell? Or that other non-entity who left the Tories, joined UKIP then vanished without trace in 2017?

Carswell and Reckless did actually put themselves up for re-election when they defected to UKIP. The only times UKIP ever won Parliamentary elections.

[wilts rover]

Anyroad.

This is the inevitable outcome of the Referendum.

Our politics is now utterly f**ked and it will be for another generation.

The splits that were kept held together are now tearing apart.

As I keep saying, Putin must be laughing his cock off.

THIS is why he poured money into the Leave campaign.

hmmm Putin - follow the money....

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/revealed-how-dark-money-is-winning-brexit-influencing-ga

[BillyStubbsTears]

George Soros will be funding this little band of saboteurs. If this lot are so keen on a second vote why don't they put there money where their mouth is and call by elections?

Like St Nigel of Farage did when he quit UKIP, and then again when he set up his new party?

Or Carswell? Or that other non-entity who left the Tories, joined UKIP then vanished without trace in 2017?

Carswell and Reckless did actually put themselves up for re-election when they defected to UKIP. The only times UKIP ever won Parliamentary elections.

Did they? My mistake.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'd like a centre left leader to take the reins if that's what makes the party more electable, as long as they keep the majority of socialist domestic policies outlined in the manifest and don't go back on increasing taxes for the rich and corporate world etc.

Depends on your definition of corporate world.  Taxing a lot of big companies and high earners is indirectly negative for low and middle earners.  I don't agree with increasing taxes, I would much rather the rules were changed to clamp down on Amazon et al.  An overall increase just harms all companies, not just the ones who are an issue.

That's taken as an article of faith on the Right BYFP, but there's absolutely zero evidence that imposing high taxes on the rich has negative effects on the economy, or reduces Govt income. It's just a line that's repeated so often and so confidently by right wing politicians that lots of people assume it to be true.

[The Red Baron]

I read an interesting political stat that of the 28 SDP MPs, only five held their constituencies at the 1983 General Election. The only chap who fought a by-election after defecting, Bruce Douglas-Mann, actually lost his seat.

It might explain why the Independent Group don't fancy fighting by-elections.