Positives & negatives

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The title of this thread is how I feel about us finishing either 6th or below.  There are pros and cons to each.  I do feel finishing 7th may not be a bad thing. We are a long way from ready to be promoted.

[dickos1]

Chris black come back says it will never happen, nobody can catch us. He’s been telling the “idiots” on here for weeks posh and Coventry can’t catch us it's impossible

And you’ve been willing it to happen it seems!

Yes mate
It’s exactly what I want
Clown

That’s what I thought yeah. Kipping on your pal Fergie’s couch toneet?

Don't talk b*llocks mate.

He'll be tucked up beside him.

You’re wasted on here, should have your own tv show

[the vicar]

I agree with that

[Lesonthewest]

The only reason we played better second half was 1, we couldn't play any worse, & 2, Stanley sat back, let us have the ball, & watched us huff & puff.

[since-1969]

We are better off without the playoffs and save time and start building for next season. Our lacklustre performances are just not good enough to expect anything positive to come from them . Tonight was not only pathetic but a good indicator of what we can expect if we progress any further . We haven’t the players or the experience to build momentum through to a final .

[dickos1]

We played better in the second half because whiteman and sadlier did a lot more than Crawford and May.
They sat back all the first half too but still looked dangerous on the break.
In the second half they only got in our half of the pitch a couple of times

[Lesonthewest]

They didn't sit back first half, their goal had been coming from the previous ten minutes when they were wining corners & free kicks, that's not sitting back & letting us have the ball.

[dickos1]

They scored in the 16th min, from then onwards they sat back

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It's baffling. You have to wonder why we don't seem to have to mental capacity to perform at key times for successive seasons.

It's a different manager but yet the same weaknesses still come to the surface. It's not like we're asking the players to do more, but just to perform at the same level they have done for the most part of the season. For me, it's the senior players who for whatever reason are not as influential as they should be. Rowe, Marquis, Andrew to name but few don't seem to be able to impose their presence on the opposition. I'm not solely blaming them tonight for the defeat mind.

Maybe Ferguson wasn't the problem afterall and McCann must be equally puzzled why the wheels have gone very wonky!

Anyone else got any ideas?

[Alan Southstand]

I'd go along with that, DBR and only add that this where no strength in depth comes and bites you on the ass. We simply have no back-up for key players.

And, it doesn't help when the manager changes what looked like a workable solution (4-2-3-1) back to the one he really wants to play, in 4-3-3.

As supporters, we've seen this collapse of form at the end of a season for the last 2 or 3 seasons, now, and it really is wearing thin. We maybe all thought that a new manager was the answer but it clearly isn't and even he is making mistakes, now. I despair.

[RobTheRover]

The title of this thread is how I feel about us finishing either 6th or below.  There are pros and cons to each.  I do feel finishing 7th may not be a bad thing. We are a long way from ready to be promoted.

Don't worry. The board would certainly invest if we did get promoted. They want it as much as we do (most of us, anyway).

[RedJ]

The title of this thread is how I feel about us finishing either 6th or below.  There are pros and cons to each.  I do feel finishing 7th may not be a bad thing. We are a long way from ready to be promoted.

Don't worry. The board would certainly invest if we did get promoted. They want it as much as we do (most of us, anyway).

Heard more of the "bet they've offered them a bonus not to go up" last night.

Christ, some of our fans need to give their f**king heads a wobble.

[DonnyFC1]

Absolutely shambolic perfomance. Cant remember the last time we played as bad as in the first half. We looked tired. We looked lethargic. Looked like we had no ideas or creativity whatsoever.

 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The title of this thread is how I feel about us finishing either 6th or below.  There are pros and cons to each.  I do feel finishing 7th may not be a bad thing. We are a long way from ready to be promoted.

Don't worry. The board would certainly invest if we did get promoted. They want it as much as we do (most of us, anyway).

I don't doubt that Rob at all and of course we should go for it, but would we be stronger with another year in the league?

[silent majority]

The title of this thread is how I feel about us finishing either 6th or below.  There are pros and cons to each.  I do feel finishing 7th may not be a bad thing. We are a long way from ready to be promoted.

Don't worry. The board would certainly invest if we did get promoted. They want it as much as we do (most of us, anyway).

I don't doubt that Rob at all and of course we should go for it, but would we be stronger with another year in the league?

Not necessarily. It's all about budget size. We are where we expected to be, a budget size that gets us into the top 6 but doesn't make us stand out like those above us. And next season would be pretty much the same. There will always be a handful of clubs whose budget will give them a significant advantage over the others.

Last season we had Wigan with a budget of £12m, Blackburn £17m, Rotherham £6.5m. All promoted.

We had the 6th biggest budget, but ended up 15th.

[Chris Black come back]

This is where we should be. A very good manager would push us up a little bit, while McCann has done a good job and has us on course for hitting where our budget should take us. Pissing around in bottom half of table would be abject failure for this budget.

[Lesonthewest]

They scored in the 16th min, from then onwards they sat back

You said they sat back all the first half, so now it's after 15 minutes, they did what they had to do & got their goal by attacking us.

[Upton Rover]

How is it still in our hands???? Posh only gave 7 goal difference 2 make up on us they have 3 games left

[NickDRFC]

How is it still in our hands???? Posh only gave 7 goal difference 2 make up on us they have 3 games left

It’s still in our hands as we aren’t reliant on other teams losing for us to make the playoffs.*

We could technically win both games and Peterborough could still overhaul us but for that to happen they would need a bare minimum of 3 victories by 3 goal margins. Posh have managed that 3 times in 43 games this season, 2 of which were back in August, so I think it’s fairly safe to say that is only a very, very remote possibility.

*I mean this in the sense that Coventry, for example, need both us and Peterborough to collapse to make the play offs. We probably are reliant on other teams slipping up but that’s because we are playing dreadfully, not because it’s a mathematical necessity.

[RoversAlias]

Upton, It's still in our hands because, if we win our two remaining games, it doesn't matter what Peterborough or Coventry do, they won't catch us.

[bobjimwilly]

It's such fine margins but it could be all over by 5pm on Saturday if we win and Peterborough lose (away at Walsall, who have to win to avoid relegation) - Coventry will be out of it and Peterborough would have to win their remaining 2 games away from home AND overturn the goal difference AND hope we don't get a point against Coventry.

We need to go all in at Oxford, who should be on the beach by now...

[drfchound]

I'd go along with that, DBR and only add that this where no strength in depth comes and bites you on the ass. We simply have no back-up for key players.

And, it doesn't help when the manager changes what looked like a workable solution (4-2-3-1) back to the one he really wants to play, in 4-3-3.

As supporters, we've seen this collapse of form at the end of a season for the last 2 or 3 seasons, now, and it really is wearing thin. We maybe all thought that a new manager was the answer but it clearly isn't and even he is making mistakes, now. I despair.

It is a good job we got McCann instead of Ferguson.
The football has overall been more enjoyable to watch and we have improved our position considerably over last season.
Had we continued this season like we had played last season our crowds would have been down as well.

[Chris Black come back]

We need to stop fannying around and start with some real purpose. Get in their faces and an early goal. Too often recently we only wake up in second half.

[pib]

I would disagree that it’s ALL about budget size. It’s about bang for buck as well.

If we had the 6th biggest budget last year, then not only did we underachieve for the budget we had, I’m also compelled to wonder where that money went because we certainly didn’t have a “6th best” standard squad. Nowhere near.

Equally this season, I don’t think we’ve got the sixth best squad in the division, but with the canny way McCann has used the loan market he’s got us closer than we were.

It leads me to conclude, albeit just my subjective take on it, that either the sixth biggest budget doesn’t go that far, or there’s a lot of money tied up on a handful of above averagely paid players at the club.

[silent majority]

I would disagree that it’s ALL about budget size. It’s about bang for buck as well.

If we had the 6th biggest budget last year, then not only did we underachieve for the budget we had, I’m also compelled to wonder where that money went because we certainly didn’t have a “6th best” standard squad. Nowhere near.

Equally this season, I don’t think we’ve got the sixth best squad in the division, but with the canny way McCann has used the loan market he’s got us closer than we were.

It leads me to conclude, albeit just my subjective take on it, that either the sixth biggest budget doesn’t go that far, or there’s a lot of money tied up on a handful of above averagely paid players at the club.

But that's just your personal opinion, whereas the figures I've quoted are fact. In most cases the clubs with the biggest budgets are at the top of the division and those with the smallest are at the bottom, but sometimes games show that to be a nonsense.

Take last nights game for example. Accrington have one of the lowest budgets, if not the lowest in this league at just over £1m. Ours will be 4 times that.

Sunderland though, will be at least 5 times the size of ours.

[pib]

I would disagree that it’s ALL about budget size. It’s about bang for buck as well.

If we had the 6th biggest budget last year, then not only did we underachieve for the budget we had, I’m also compelled to wonder where that money went because we certainly didn’t have a “6th best” standard squad. Nowhere near.

Equally this season, I don’t think we’ve got the sixth best squad in the division, but with the canny way McCann has used the loan market he’s got us closer than we were.

It leads me to conclude, albeit just my subjective take on it, that either the sixth biggest budget doesn’t go that far, or there’s a lot of money tied up on a handful of above averagely paid players at the club.

But that's just your personal opinion, whereas the figures I've quoted are fact. In most cases the clubs with the biggest budgets are at the top of the division and those with the smallest are at the bottom, but sometimes games show that to be a nonsense.

Take last nights game for example. Accrington have one of the lowest budgets, if not the lowest in this league at just over £1m. Ours will be 4 times that.

Sunderland though, will be at least 5 times the size of ours.

Yes, it is my opinion. Which is why I used phrases such as “I would disagree” and “it leads me to conclude”. Posting some facts doesn’t shut down all discussion does it? Especially when I’m not disagreeing with the facts and am discussing them.

I didn’t dispute the facts that you posted for one second. It is my personal opinion that you can have a good budget but if it’s mismanaged and misused, you won’t get the results that your budget suggests you should.

I think you’ve backed that up with your examples of Accrington and Sunderland. Accrington - lowest budget but nowhere near the bottom. Sunderland - biggest budget but not at the top.

So basically, we agree.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pib
It's not a perfect correlation. There are factors like management quality, injuries and a little luck. But I'm sure that if you plotted out final league position against budget rankings for any division in any year in any country, there would be a strong correlation. With a spread of course, and the odd wild outlier.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Whaddya know? The Open University has done a study on this.



That's a far stronger correlation than I'd have thought.

Bear in mind that above the line means the club outperformed relative to budget and below the line means the club underperformed.

Look where we are. And Leeds...

[pib]

Not sure I denied that at any point BST.

I’m questioning the bang for buck we got out of this sixth placed budget, especially with regards to our 15th placed finish last year.

This year we’ve closed that gap due to better management of resources, but we still have areas where we look short which, like you say, can be partly attributed to injuries, luck, or just that existential lower-league issue of finding the balance between quality and quantity. If we finish 6th this season then we will indeed be where we should be for the budget we’ve got.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dutch Uncle can probably make more from that graph than I can, but if my fag packet calcs are right, it's deeply depressing. It looks like, at the bottom end of the Championship, the extreme outliers (us) only outperformed the average for our budget by 4-5 league places.

So it looks like, on average, even the very best set up and management can only make a trifling difference compared to the effect of budget.

Football eh? f**king hell.