Be a couple of folk...

[Axholme Lion]

A controversial view on Billy's post raises a point I read elsewhere last night but looking at it from a totally different point of view regarding memory's.

.A Coventry fan raged that whilst it's great for Liverpool fans to crow on about the memory of last night it was THEY and their fans behaviour who were responsible for English clubs being banned from Europe..During that time Wimbledon,Coventry and Wednesday would have being playing  European football some for the only chance they will ever get.Everton had one of the best sides in the late 80's that was dismantled as players left due to not playing in Europe..Were was the memory's for us...

Interesting point of view...

It’s a myth. We were banned from Europe for causing mayhem over a number of years, not just the Heysal disaster. Agreed that was the final straw perhaps but we’d been threatened with a ban previously. English supporters had been causing trouble in Europe since the 60’s and UEFA simply had enough of us. So, to blame only Liverpool isn’t correct.

As far as I know Liverpool fans were the only ones to kill people, but it's never their fault as they are professional victims.

[Gelan Swift]

Saying it will count for nothing, translates into "I cannot enjoy separate matches, only cup finals and promotions" so not really a football fan.

You get them following every sport.

[silent majority]

A controversial view on Billy's post raises a point I read elsewhere last night but looking at it from a totally different point of view regarding memory's.

.A Coventry fan raged that whilst it's great for Liverpool fans to crow on about the memory of last night it was THEY and their fans behaviour who were responsible for English clubs being banned from Europe..During that time Wimbledon,Coventry and Wednesday would have being playing  European football some for the only chance they will ever get.Everton had one of the best sides in the late 80's that was dismantled as players left due to not playing in Europe..Were was the memory's for us...

Interesting point of view...

It’s a myth. We were banned from Europe for causing mayhem over a number of years, not just the Heysal disaster. Agreed that was the final straw perhaps but we’d been threatened with a ban previously. English supporters had been causing trouble in Europe since the 60’s and UEFA simply had enough of us. So, to blame only Liverpool isn’t correct.

As far as I know Liverpool fans were the only ones to kill people, but it's never their fault as they are professional victims.

But that's not true either. I remember more than one incident where people died, including at a fixture between Birmingham City and Leeds Utd.

[Boomstick]

A controversial view on Billy's post raises a point I read elsewhere last night but looking at it from a totally different point of view regarding memory's.

.A Coventry fan raged that whilst it's great for Liverpool fans to crow on about the memory of last night it was THEY and their fans behaviour who were responsible for English clubs being banned from Europe..During that time Wimbledon,Coventry and Wednesday would have being playing  European football some for the only chance they will ever get.Everton had one of the best sides in the late 80's that was dismantled as players left due to not playing in Europe..Were was the memory's for us...

Interesting point of view...

It’s a myth. We were banned from Europe for causing mayhem over a number of years, not just the Heysal disaster. Agreed that was the final straw perhaps but we’d been threatened with a ban previously. English supporters had been causing trouble in Europe since the 60’s and UEFA simply had enough of us. So, to blame only Liverpool isn’t correct.

As far as I know Liverpool fans were the only ones to kill people, but it's never their fault as they are professional victims.

But that's not true either. I remember more than one incident where people died, including at a fixture between Birmingham City and Leeds Utd.

Oh so it's OK then?
How many died at each incident?

[silent majority]

A controversial view on Billy's post raises a point I read elsewhere last night but looking at it from a totally different point of view regarding memory's.

.A Coventry fan raged that whilst it's great for Liverpool fans to crow on about the memory of last night it was THEY and their fans behaviour who were responsible for English clubs being banned from Europe..During that time Wimbledon,Coventry and Wednesday would have being playing  European football some for the only chance they will ever get.Everton had one of the best sides in the late 80's that was dismantled as players left due to not playing in Europe..Were was the memory's for us...

Interesting point of view...

It’s a myth. We were banned from Europe for causing mayhem over a number of years, not just the Heysal disaster. Agreed that was the final straw perhaps but we’d been threatened with a ban previously. English supporters had been causing trouble in Europe since the 60’s and UEFA simply had enough of us. So, to blame only Liverpool isn’t correct.

As far as I know Liverpool fans were the only ones to kill people, but it's never their fault as they are professional victims.

But that's not true either. I remember more than one incident where people died, including at a fixture between Birmingham City and Leeds Utd.

Oh so it's OK then?
How many died at each incident?

Where did I say it was OK?

[Axholme Lion]

A controversial view on Billy's post raises a point I read elsewhere last night but looking at it from a totally different point of view regarding memory's.

.A Coventry fan raged that whilst it's great for Liverpool fans to crow on about the memory of last night it was THEY and their fans behaviour who were responsible for English clubs being banned from Europe..During that time Wimbledon,Coventry and Wednesday would have being playing  European football some for the only chance they will ever get.Everton had one of the best sides in the late 80's that was dismantled as players left due to not playing in Europe..Were was the memory's for us...

Interesting point of view...

It’s a myth. We were banned from Europe for causing mayhem over a number of years, not just the Heysal disaster. Agreed that was the final straw perhaps but we’d been threatened with a ban previously. English supporters had been causing trouble in Europe since the 60’s and UEFA simply had enough of us. So, to blame only Liverpool isn’t correct.

As far as I know Liverpool fans were the only ones to kill people, but it's never their fault as they are professional victims.

But that's not true either. I remember more than one incident where people died, including at a fixture between Birmingham City and Leeds Utd.

But that was here and did not result in British clubs getting banned from Europe.

[IDM]

No but it was indicative of a wider problem, not just Liverpool fans.

[Gelan Swift]

Life is chaotic, people die at sporting events, so do we really need to out our opinions, upset others and rake up an unchangeable past?

All actions and reactions started with the "Big Bang" so there, I've just made everyone's points pointless.

It takes no effort to be nice.

[idler]

Heysel should never have been chosen for a game of such magnitude. It wasn't fit for purpose.
That in no way excuses the behaviour of the minority of idiots causing the problems.

[drfchound]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

[Herbert Anchovy]

A controversial view on Billy's post raises a point I read elsewhere last night but looking at it from a totally different point of view regarding memory's.

.A Coventry fan raged that whilst it's great for Liverpool fans to crow on about the memory of last night it was THEY and their fans behaviour who were responsible for English clubs being banned from Europe..During that time Wimbledon,Coventry and Wednesday would have being playing  European football some for the only chance they will ever get.Everton had one of the best sides in the late 80's that was dismantled as players left due to not playing in Europe..Were was the memory's for us...

Interesting point of view...

It’s a myth. We were banned from Europe for causing mayhem over a number of years, not just the Heysal disaster. Agreed that was the final straw perhaps but we’d been threatened with a ban previously. English supporters had been causing trouble in Europe since the 60’s and UEFA simply had enough of us. So, to blame only Liverpool isn’t correct.

As far as I know Liverpool fans were the only ones to kill people, but it's never their fault as they are professional victims.

But that's not true either. I remember more than one incident where people died, including at a fixture between Birmingham City and Leeds Utd.

Oh so it's OK then?
How many died at each incident?

I know it’s a poor turn of phrase, but the number of people who died is immaterial. The fact is English clubs were warned on numerous occasions that they faced a ban should their fans continue to misbehave. Heysal was simply the final straw. It’s also important to remember that our government supported this move too. It’s easy to forget that there were problems virtually every time our clubs or national team played abroad. Blaming only Liverpool for the ban simply ignores the misbehaviour of fans from other clubs (and the national team) and is used for nothing other than an excuse for people who don’t like them to criticise them.

[Axholme Lion]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

[IDM]

That’s not what he’s saying..

[Glyn_Wigley]

How dare UEFA have banned British clubs anyway? Didn't they know Britain saved all their arses in the war? blah blah blah

[Axholme Lion]

How dare UEFA have banned British clubs anyway? Didn't they know Britain saved all their arses in the war? blah blah blah

It was the only way they could think of getting one of their lot to win a trophy.

[Herbert Anchovy]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I look at it like this.

Heysel was the tipping point for UEFA to take action and English clubs were banned from Europe in the aftermath. Liverpool were the club directly involved, so they have to shoulder responsibility.

Bygone era now though!

And I still maintain for this to be the 'greatest ever comeback' Liverpool now have to go on and win the Champions League. If they don't, what will it count for? It'll be seen as a 'great' comeback, but tinged with regret as they didn't win the final.

You’re right, Liverpool were responsible for Heysel. However, the reason we were banned was our depressingly long history of causing chaos wherever we played.

[Axholme Lion]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I look at it like this.

Heysel was the tipping point for UEFA to take action and English clubs were banned from Europe in the aftermath. Liverpool were the club directly involved, so they have to shoulder responsibility.

Bygone era now though!

And I still maintain for this to be the 'greatest ever comeback' Liverpool now have to go on and win the Champions League. If they don't, what will it count for? It'll be seen as a 'great' comeback, but tinged with regret as they didn't win the final.

You’re right, Liverpool were responsible for Heysel. However, the reason we were banned was our depressingly long history of causing chaos wherever we played.

But we weren't banned before Liverpool murdered people at Heysel were we, therefore they were responsible.

[IDM]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I look at it like this.

Heysel was the tipping point for UEFA to take action and English clubs were banned from Europe in the aftermath. Liverpool were the club directly involved, so they have to shoulder responsibility.

Bygone era now though!

And I still maintain for this to be the 'greatest ever comeback' Liverpool now have to go on and win the Champions League. If they don't, what will it count for? It'll be seen as a 'great' comeback, but tinged with regret as they didn't win the final.

You’re right, Liverpool were responsible for Heysel. However, the reason we were banned was our depressingly long history of causing chaos wherever we played.

But we weren't banned before Liverpool murdered people at Heysel were we, therefore they were responsible.

Liverpool FANS, not “Liverpool”..

Also, as tragic as the Heysel deaths were, I don’t think they were murders..

[Axholme Lion]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I look at it like this.

Heysel was the tipping point for UEFA to take action and English clubs were banned from Europe in the aftermath. Liverpool were the club directly involved, so they have to shoulder responsibility.

Bygone era now though!

And I still maintain for this to be the 'greatest ever comeback' Liverpool now have to go on and win the Champions League. If they don't, what will it count for? It'll be seen as a 'great' comeback, but tinged with regret as they didn't win the final.

You’re right, Liverpool were responsible for Heysel. However, the reason we were banned was our depressingly long history of causing chaos wherever we played.

But we weren't banned before Liverpool murdered people at Heysel were we, therefore they were responsible.

Liverpool FANS, not “Liverpool”..

Also, as tragic as the Heysel deaths were, I don’t think they were murders..

Correct, Liverpool fans. However you dress it up though 39 people were killed. It wasn't just a case of a few young blokes having a tear up and a few windows getting put through on a boozer. Liverpool should never have been let near European football again.

[IDM]

I’m not belittling the tragedy of Heysel nor any other..

You can’t blame/punish LFC forever for the behaviour of supporters..

[Axholme Lion]

I’m not belittling the tragedy of Heysel nor any other..

You can’t blame/punish LFC forever for the behaviour of supporters..

Why not Millwall are and we never killed anyone?

[silent majority]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I look at it like this.

Heysel was the tipping point for UEFA to take action and English clubs were banned from Europe in the aftermath. Liverpool were the club directly involved, so they have to shoulder responsibility.

Bygone era now though!

And I still maintain for this to be the 'greatest ever comeback' Liverpool now have to go on and win the Champions League. If they don't, what will it count for? It'll be seen as a 'great' comeback, but tinged with regret as they didn't win the final.

You’re right, Liverpool were responsible for Heysel. However, the reason we were banned was our depressingly long history of causing chaos wherever we played.

But we weren't banned before Liverpool murdered people at Heysel were we, therefore they were responsible.

Liverpool FANS, not “Liverpool”..

Also, as tragic as the Heysel deaths were, I don’t think they were murders..

Correct, Liverpool fans. However you dress it up though 39 people were killed. It wasn't just a case of a few young blokes having a tear up and a few windows getting put through on a boozer. Liverpool should never have been let near European football again.

You're simplifying things beyond belief so as to support your opinion of Liverpool fans.

Many Liverpool fans were charged and imprisoned for their part. But the authorities were also to blame, ticketing arrangements, Policing, segregation issues etc etc. All to blame.

English clubs supporters played a large part, no less Man Utd, Leeds, Tottenham, had all left trails of destruction in their wake for many years previous to that.

[IDM]

I’m not belittling the tragedy of Heysel nor any other..

You can’t blame/punish LFC forever for the behaviour of supporters..

Why not Millwall are and we never killed anyone?

b*llocks.. Millwall are not to blame for their fans’ behaviour no more than any other club are..

[Axholme Lion]

I’m not belittling the tragedy of Heysel nor any other..

You can’t blame/punish LFC forever for the behaviour of supporters..

Why not Millwall are and we never killed anyone?

b*llocks.. Millwall are not to blame for their fans’ behaviour no more than any other club are..

Millwall are not to blame for previous issues but they still get punished. Members only all ticket away matches, reduced ticket allocations, OTT heavy handed Policing/stewarding, plus vilification for any minor misdemeanour on the likes of Talksport after a silly song gets sung by a dozen teenage plonkers. The list goes on. Far worse issues at many PL clubs than anything that goes on down in SE16 are ignored or swept under the carpet every week, because the powers that be don't want to tarnish the pc, family image of the PL money machine, whereas they can show their do-gooder credentials by hammering unfashionable, working class clubs such as Wall and yourselves at any opportunity. I hate everything about PL football and all it stands for.

[IDM]

Again, that’s aimed at the fans isn’t it.?

[drfchound]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I am not denying that some Liverpool fans were in the wrong that night.
I can remember watching that night and without doubt, some of the Juventus fans were equally as bad.
Bricks and bottles were flying both ways.
I may be wrong on this next point as my memory might not be reminding me properly, but I seem to recall there was film of an Italian fan with a gun.
Maybe someone else might remember.

[NickDRFC]

I thought the famous Millwall song was "No one likes us, we don't care". Axholme - you seem to care a great deal about your club being disliked!

[IDM]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I am not denying that some Liverpool fans were in the wrong that night.
I can remember watching that night and without doubt, some of the Juventus fans were equally as bad.
Bricks and bottles were flying both ways.
I may be wrong on this next point as my memory might not be reminding me properly, but I seem to recall there was film of an Italian fan with a gun.
Maybe someone else might remember.

I remember that too - was never sure but it looked like it.. could have been a water pistol but nowt was made of it because of the tragedy at the other end..

[Herbert Anchovy]

........and of course the Juve fans were just innocent bystanders who did not do anything wrong.

I suppose if it was my team or say L**ds who caused it not so many would be trying to cast the blame on Juventus fans. Why do some people never accept that Liverpool fans can ever be in the wrong?

I look at it like this.

Heysel was the tipping point for UEFA to take action and English clubs were banned from Europe in the aftermath. Liverpool were the club directly involved, so they have to shoulder responsibility.

Bygone era now though!

And I still maintain for this to be the 'greatest ever comeback' Liverpool now have to go on and win the Champions League. If they don't, what will it count for? It'll be seen as a 'great' comeback, but tinged with regret as they didn't win the final.

You’re right, Liverpool were responsible for Heysel. However, the reason we were banned was our depressingly long history of causing chaos wherever we played.

But we weren't banned before Liverpool murdered people at Heysel were we, therefore they were responsible.

Liverpool FANS, not “Liverpool”..

Also, as tragic as the Heysel deaths were, I don’t think they were murders..

Correct, Liverpool fans. However you dress it up though 39 people were killed. It wasn't just a case of a few young blokes having a tear up and a few windows getting put through on a boozer. Liverpool should never have been let near European football again.

I’m not trying to dress anything up. However, the fact is this; English clubs were banned for the behaviour of fans over a period of many years and not just Heysal, so it’s inaccurate to say Liverpool got English clubs banned! They way English fans behaved back then it could have been any clubs fans that were involved in such a disaster. Plus, I’m old enough to remember the behaviour of England fans at Euro 80 when there were stabbings on the terraces as they chased Italian and Belgium fans.  That could just as easily have led to a Heysal type disaster.

[Axholme Lion]

I thought the famous Millwall song was "No one likes us, we don't care". Axholme - you seem to care a great deal about your club being disliked!

Very true and to be honest we don't as a rule, but what really irks me is the fact that fashionable clubs clearly get away with stuff we get hauled over the coals for. I'm not fussed if anyone likes us or if they don't, but it's the treatment we as fans get when others get away with worse that really annoys me. The likes of Wall, Doncaster etc should be dealt with in the same way as your Liverpools and Man Citys of this world.