FAO Dutch

[BillyStubbsTears]

And anyone else interested in Northern Ireland's recent history.

Grimly fascinating series on R4 last week about the start of the Troubles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007k6b/episodes/guide

What struck me was the "ordinariness" of the situation. How things can fall apart of people aren't prepared to stop it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Did you ever see the Ken Burns documentary series 'The Vietnam War'? It was similar in that the US Government cocked up thinking how they would win the war, found out they were wrong, but kept on escalating it just because they could't think of a way out of it where they didn't lose face. So thousands of people kept on dying just because of that. And the US Government lied, lied and lied again to their own people to cover up what a total mess they knew it to be.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Never saw that Glyn.

I did read about how Bob McNamara, the Secretary of State, had a nervous breakdown in office over Vietnam and would stand by the window in his office, crying into the curtains.

[Herbert Anchovy]

I can’t claim to know much about the troubles but a bloke I worked with once told me a scary story. In the 70’s he was a keen ornathologist and had travelled to Ireland on his own to do some bird watching. One morning he was on a train and struck up a conversation with a bloke opposite. A few minutes later another man came over and asked if he was English. When he confirmed that he was the man walked away. A moment later another man came across and told him to move to another carriage and to make sure he got off at the next stop. The original man he was speaking with confirmed that the pair were well known Republican sympathises and strongly recommended that he did as they said. Terrifying stuff.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Never saw that Glyn.

I did read about how Bob McNamara, the Secretary of State, had a nervous breakdown in office over Vietnam and would stand by the window in his office, crying into the curtains.

That was in it too. It's just been repeated on PBS America, and I think they tend to rerun things a few times before moving on. It's in ten parts but thet parts could be all over so I'd set it to record whatever you can find and then work out the right order to watch them in. I watched it because when I was very young Vietnam seemed to be on the news every night but being young I didn't understand what it was all about, so I watched this to learn about. Even while watching it you get the feeling 'why the f**k was this tragedy allowed to carry on for so long by politicians too vain to do the right thing?'.

PS And as if Watergate wasn't enough to dislike Nixon, wait till you find out what he did just before the 1968 election. Your jaw will be on the floor, it's a dirty trick worthy of Boris.

[nightporter]

The Vietnam program is on Netflix

[Sandy Lane]

I just read a very good book called “Say Nothing” by Patrick Keefe, about the “troubles”.  I can’t believe that name has stuck despite the murders and mayhem in NI, or “The North” as I was advised to refer to it once while I was in Belfast. 

As an aside - we went to NI a few years ago and we all felt terribly unwelcome, although the beauty there is something to behold, but were very happy to return to ROI.  We sympathised with the republicans once I read the history, but were put off while actually there by the flags on different streets, and the ppl made sure they knew who you were and where we were at all times and were sure to make it known to us. We were tourists.  Scary stuff.  Sorry Dutch.

[Dutch Uncle]

And anyone else interested in Northern Ireland's recent history.

Grimly fascinating series on R4 last week about the start of the Troubles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007k6b/episodes/guide

What struck me was the "ordinariness" of the situation. How things can fall apart of people aren't prepared to stop it.

Hi BST - have seen a couple - we have been  out a lot this week. They were very good and we will definitely watch the rest on iPlayer.

And Sandy - I agree with you. The two communities seem to need to constantly prove their identity and push the boundaries of what they can and can't do. It is especially bad in the summer marching season, which is now fortunately largely over after the Apprentice Boys parade a week ago and which caused much unnecessary tension with the para emblems being gartuitously (IMHO) displayed. 

[SydneyRover]

As a young kid I never quite understood why a family from NI painted their front doorsteps in red, white and blue when they came to live in Donny, the realisation arrived as I drove through Belfast in 93 and the memory of those steps came flooding back.

[Crowle Rover]

Never saw that Glyn.

I did read about how Bob McNamara, the Secretary of State, had a nervous breakdown in office over Vietnam and would stand by the window in his office, crying into the curtains.

Its been repeated on BBC4 on Saturday nights so should be on the i-player.

I watched it first time round,absolutely fascinating.

Great soundtrack too.

[Draytonian III]

I just read a very good book called “Say Nothing” by Patrick Keefe, about the “troubles”.  I can’t believe that name has stuck despite the murders and mayhem in NI, or “The North” as I was advised to refer to it once while I was in Belfast. 

As an aside - we went to NI a few years ago and we all felt terribly unwelcome, although the beauty there is something to behold, but were very happy to return to ROI.  We sympathised with the republicans once I read the history, but were put off while actually there by the flags on different streets, and the ppl made sure they knew who you were and where we were at all times and were sure to make it known to us. We were tourists.  Scary stuff.  Sorry Dutch.

How long ago was it that you were in Northern Ireland ?

[roversdude]

Mate of mine was on patrol there and got left behind in a potato field - they did come back for shortly after. He was kacking it (with good reason)

[JonWallsend]

I visited Nortern Ireland for the first time ever three weeks ago as my son was playing in the NI supercup (formerly the milk cup). He stayed in Coleraine in the Ulster University Halls, we were in Portrush. He played 5 games in a variety of places inc Ballymena, Aoghill and Ballymoney so I got to see a fair bit of  the north of Northern Ireland.

What a fantastic place. The countryside, the people, the general attitude and atmosphere everywhere I went were fantastic. I only wish I had discovered Portrush and Portstewart years ago when my children were younger because both are fantastic for a family break.

Admittedly,  other than on the day of the opening parade we had 5 days of good  weather which does help.

[Sandy Lane]

And anyone else interested in Northern Ireland's recent history.

Grimly fascinating series on R4 last week about the start of the Troubles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007k6b/episodes/guide

What struck me was the "ordinariness" of the situation. How things can fall apart of people aren't prepared to stop it.

Hi BST - have seen a couple - we have been  out a lot this week. They were very good and we will definitely watch the rest on iPlayer.

And Sandy - I agree with you. The two communities seem to need to constantly prove their identity and push the boundaries of what they can and can't do. It is especially bad in the summer marching season, which is now fortunately largely over after the Apprentice Boys parade a week ago and which caused much unnecessary tension with the para emblems being gartuitously (IMHO) displayed. 

Thanks Brian. I love Ireland and overall I was hoping for a remain vote. I’m not really sure of the status of Brexit now, but I hope they reject any Brexit deal that does not include an open border because you can see first hand how divided and fragile the peace is.

[Sandy Lane]

I just read a very good book called “Say Nothing” by Patrick Keefe, about the “troubles”.  I can’t believe that name has stuck despite the murders and mayhem in NI, or “The North” as I was advised to refer to it once while I was in Belfast. 

As an aside - we went to NI a few years ago and we all felt terribly unwelcome, although the beauty there is something to behold, but were very happy to return to ROI.  We sympathised with the republicans once I read the history, but were put off while actually there by the flags on different streets, and the ppl made sure they knew who you were and where we were at all times and were sure to make it known to us. We were tourists.  Scary stuff.  Sorry Dutch.

How long ago was it that you were in Northern Ireland ?

I was there three yrs ago in 2016. 

[Dutch Uncle]

I should definitely add, also agreeing with Jon above, that most people over here are absolutely brilliant. There are of course the fringes of hotheads, mainly in certain definite areas, usually with many flags on display, and the whole thing heats up every year during the marching season. Also Brexit has definitely stoked fears, especially the spectre of no deal and a hard border.

There is an increasing feeling that many politicians on the mainland do not understand, or even can be bothered to try to understand, the complex and delicate nature of matters over here, and that the threat to the last 20 years of peaceful life over here is either being ignored or used as a political tool.

And by the way, there is also a feeling of anger at local politicians still not back in assembly after more than 2 years.

[Filo]

I was in the same car park at the Lakeland Forum in Enniskillen when the car bomb went off killing 4 off duty soldiers who had just been fishing the Sealink Classic on the River Erne system. Probably the most frightening thing in my life, it never stopped me returning to Northern Ireland, and that was a lot to do with the friendlyness of the people there, nothing was ever too much trouble for them

[Draytonian III]

I spend a lot of time in Northern Ireland and I’ve never felt on edge at all, as others have said it’s a beautiful country.

[Sandy Lane]

I should qualify that when we were in Belfast we felt unwelcome, but we also were driving a car with Dublin plates and someone pointed out that could have been the reason.  Other areas were definitely friendlier, but due to the flags on each street and other signs of partisanship and our prior experience in Belfast, we felt it more acutely I think.

Having said that it was great to see Port Rush, the Dark Hedges, and Giants Causeway which were all spectacular! 

[wilts rover]

Fascinating (and disturbing) programme on BBC4 this evening for those that saw it - essential viewing if you didn't

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv-programme/e/jmyv42/the-troubles-a-secret-history--series-1-episode-1/

[Draytonian III]

I’ve spent numerous days,weeks,months in Northern Ireland and have never seen any bother at all

[Dutch Uncle]

We watched that program which my wife found traumatising - it took her right back to how life was here in the troubles, what she experienced and why she left.

Things have totally changed in the last 20 years, and it is all down to The Good Friday Agreement . As many have correctly said life is great here now, but it is all at risk of being destroyed by a hard border. Look at Derry/Londonderry events recently including this week and the potential of spread to other areas if a no border happens is very real.

Be interesting to see if this is covered by Yellowhammer.