HS2 - Could be scraped

[nightporter]

The government is launching a review of high-speed rail link HS2 - with a “go or no-go" decision to be made by the end of the year,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49420332

[BillyStubbsTears]

Absolute madness.

The way the bond markets are at the moment, the Govt can effectively borrow to fund this interest free. And it would then be a national asset for 150 years.

But how does that help Johnson provide tax cuts for the rich, or line the pockets of the City spivs who put him in No10?

[foxbat]

I wonder which of his Eton chums would get to buy Donny's HS2 college building cheap and then sell it off to foreign ownership for a massive profit. ?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

There is a question as to whether it's the best project, but projects are needed.  I'd argue Northern high speed rail to be a greater option etc.  But with the costs sunk already etc it's crazy to cancel it arguably.

[BillyStubbsTears]

We should be doing both. Our transport infrastructure is decades behind the rest of Western Europe.

[drfchound]

Scrape (sorry.......scrap) the thing.
Not required.
Allocate the money to something worthwhile like the NHS.

We all need the NHS at sometime in our lives but not too many of us need to get to London twenty minutes faster than we can do now.

Massive white elephant.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's OK, Boris promised the NHS that extra £350mill a week after we've left the EU. He's a man of his word...isn't he?

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's not about the speed, Hound, although that helps. I've got a meeting the other side of London tomorrow at 9, and I'm having to go down there tonight to be sure if making it on time. You might not have to do that often. Fir me and many other people, it's a regular occurrence.)

But what it really is about is capacity. Our system has had very little investment in it for decades and we need to look ahead to the rail network we need for the second half of the 21st century. The network is already running close to capacity and it needs upgrading. We can bodge and make do with what we've got but that means built-in inefficiency.

The problem your post illuminates is that there's a belief it has to be either this or the NHS. That's nonsense. It can and should be both. Borrowing to pay for capital investment in a train system that will serve us till the end of the 22nd century, when Govt bond rates are pretty much zero is an utter no-brainer. And it has nothing whatsoever with current account spending on the NHS.

[selby]

  BST, are you sure it is because of the time taken from Doncaster to Stevenage, or the journey from there on to your meeting that can make you late.

[drfchound]

It's not about the speed, Hound, although that helps. I've got a meeting the other side of London tomorrow at 9, and I'm having to go down there tonight to be sure if making it on time. You might not have to do that often. Fir me and many other people, it's a regular occurrence.)

But what it really is about is capacity. Our system has had very little investment in it for decades and we need to look ahead to the rail network we need for the second half of the 21st century. The network is already running close to capacity and it needs upgrading. We can bodge and make do with what we've got but that means built-in inefficiency.

The problem your post illuminates is that there's a belief it has to be either this or the NHS. That's nonsense. It can and should be both. Borrowing to pay for capital investment in a train system that will serve us till the end of the 22nd century, when Govt bond rates are pretty much zero is an utter no-brainer. And it has nothing whatsoever with current account spending on the NHS.

I get your point about being on time for your meeting BST but even with HS2, would you seriously trust it enough to get you to your meeting on time if you set off on the same morning?

There is still every chance that you could be delayed so you would probably go down there the night before anyway.

Do i use the trains and do I have to be in London for 9am meetings?
No I don’t and never have had to and I bet that the percentage of population that does is minuscule.
Unlike the 100% of people who need the NHS for the welfare of themselves and their family.

HS2 is designed to benefit a very small group of people and will be so expensive that the main users will be people on business expenses, over and over again.

The general train user will still use the trains we have now.

Scrap HS2.

[Axholme Lion]

Good. A total waste of money. Destroying peoples homes and decimating our few remaining ancient woodlands and countryside. far too much of this sort of thing happening.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

I live in Sheffield and am travelling from there, so Stevenage has nothing to do with it.

Hound. If you don't use trains at that time, how can you be so sure that the number of people who do is miniscule? The trains from Sheffield arriving at London by 10-ish are invariably packed by the time they've picked up at Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester.

And yes, of course it is business travel. People travelling on business to make the money that will pay your pension. We need to make it easier, not harder to do that.

AL. And yet, you drive. Perhaps we should dig up all the moterways and plant trees on them?

[Donnywolf]

It's OK, Boris promised the NHS that extra £350mill a week after we've left the EU. He's a man of his word...isn't he?

...if the word starts with c and ends in t yes !

[Draytonian III]

By the time it’s due to be completed hardly any one will be travelling to meetings it will be done on line,FaceTime etc . Getting to London 20 minutes quicker or billions to the NHS ,it’s an absolute no brainier. Also “BST “ by the time it’s supposed to be completed I very much doubt that you’ll have much need of it ,it’s over 10 years away from it’s due completion date and if you can remember Billy Stubbs playing you must be over 45 ,so you will more than likely be retired or close to it

[roversdude]

I assume you’re discounting the thousands of jobs this project creates
I agree however with the sentiment re woodlands

[drfchound]

Selby.

I live in Sheffield and am travelling from there, so Stevenage has nothing to do with it.

Hound. If you don't use trains at that time, how can you be so sure that the number of people who do is miniscule? The trains from Sheffield arriving at London by 10-ish are invariably packed by the time they've picked up at Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester.

And yes, of course it is business travel. People travelling on business to make the money that will pay your pension. We need to make it easier, not harder to do that.

AL. And yet, you drive. Perhaps we should dig up all the moterways and plant trees on them?

I have contributed enough to the system over my 48 years of working life to pay for other people’s pensions so I am due a bit back I think.
There are still far more people who need the services of the NHS than actually need the services of HS2 regardless of how busy the 10am train into London is.

I am assuming that due to the high cost of building HS2 that the prices for that service will be considerably higher than the standard service that you use now so how many of those packed onto the service available now will switch to HS2?

Also, to answer your question, regardless of how busy your train will be, the numbers using it WILL be minuscule when compared to the number of people who have to use the services of the NHS.

As Draytonian said, in the future, and now as well if truth be told, why do people have to travel to meetings?
I know lots of people who use conference calls and face time rather than travelling.

[i_ateallthepies]

You ever tried having an all-day meeting by conference call or one involving a large group of people?

[Bentley Bullet]

It's not long since that businessmen use to pay extra to be stuck in a siding in a sleeper carriage to get away from the wife for a bit longer. The country is simply not big enough to accomodate a proper nights kip while the trains still travelling!

[Draytonian III]

You ever tried having an all-day meeting by conference call or one involving a large group of people?

You’re all day meetings must be very important if those 20 minutes will make or break them  !!!

[drfchound]

You ever tried having an all-day meeting by conference call or one involving a large group of people?

You’re all day meetings must be very important if those 20 minutes will make or break them  !!!

.......yep, billions of pounds to save twenty minutes.

[Bentley Bullet]

I wonder how they go on in big countries where it takes longer than 4 hours 20 mins to travel the 393 miles from their capital to the country next doors capital?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyone got a free brick wall for me to talk to?

Once again. It is not a question of HS2 or NHS. We can afford both, comfortably.

Hound. I don't doubt that you paid in. But that was paying the last generation's pensions. It's us still working who pay your current pension.

[albie]

The issue is whether the money spent on HS2 could be better used elsewhere in the rail network.

For the cost of HS2 you could refurbish large sections of the creaking Victorian infrastructure on the existing network, avoiding the massive landtake and disruption HS2 requires.

The other point is that in slightly improving journey times to London, you advantage the SE economy and amplify the regional imbalance in the UK economy.

Nobody disputes that the rail network needs a reboot....but where are the real priorities?
In the current system of private provision, the benefits would be fodder for the private TOC's...Branson and the like.

Before deciding on HS2, we need to think about ownership of the network going forward!

[drfchound]

Anyone got a free brick wall for me to talk to?

Once again. It is not a question of HS2 or NHS. We can afford both, comfortably.

Hound. I don't doubt that you paid in. But that was paying the last generation's pensions. It's us still working who pay your current pension.

BST, I know about how state pensions are funded.
My kids will pay yours.
No different.

The commonly acknowledged struggling NHS would like to know where the money is that we can easily afford.

Jeez.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.
Yes, of course your kids will. Which is why it's imperative that we strengthen our economy. Which is why I've been so pissed off for so many years over Brexit and Austerity which are both making us poorer.

The biggest failing of the past decade has been the Tories' obsession with slashing capital spending. Which leaves us with out of date infrastructure while so many other countries are investing in theirs. Spending large amounts on infrastructure when the Govt can borrow effectively for free is an absolute no-brainer. In the short term, the money gets recycled in the economy which boosts economic performance through the multiplier effect, which is Economics 101. In the long term, we have better infrastructure for the future economy.

And the ONLY way we can afford more on the NHS long-term is if we have a stronger economic performance. That's why being penny-pinching on investment in HS2, delaying HS2, cancelling the East Mids electrification, having historically shocking levels of house building, slashing budgets for school buildings and not investing in the cable network and green energy is really, really bad governance in both the short and long term.

But of course, the real reason Johnson wants to cancel HS2 is that it's a popular decision with his core supporters. And that is all he cares about.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way, even if the very highest estimates of the cost of HS2 are correct, it comes to 0.25% of GDP per year for the 15 year project. And then we've got a capability for 150 years.

Or, look at it another way. The economic output we've already lost because of the slowdown in growth since the Brexit vote would pay for both HS2 and HS3.

[Axholme Lion]

Selby.

I live in Sheffield and am travelling from there, so Stevenage has nothing to do with it.

Hound. If you don't use trains at that time, how can you be so sure that the number of people who do is miniscule? The trains from Sheffield arriving at London by 10-ish are invariably packed by the time they've picked up at Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester.

And yes, of course it is business travel. People travelling on business to make the money that will pay your pension. We need to make it easier, not harder to do that.

AL. And yet, you drive. Perhaps we should dig up all the moterways and plant trees on them?

Fine by me. Maybe it could spur on a resurgence in British bicycle manufacturing after Brexit. We could learn much of self sufficiency from the great works of Enver Hoxha.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Anything to cut London off from the rest of the country!

[Axholme Lion]

Anything to cut London off from the rest of the country!

It's like another country down there nowadays in any case.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Anything to cut London off from the rest of the country!

It's like another country down there nowadays in any case.

It was when I lived there twenty years ago and one of the reasons I was happy to get out and back north again.