HS2 - Could be scraped

[BillyStubbsTears]

Voting Tory and complaining that public services are shit.

The exact equivalent of punching yourself in the face repeatedly, then complaining that your face hurts.

[drfchound]

BST, as a Labour Party member you wouldn’t say anything else would you.
I don’t support or have any allegiance to any political party and have voted for Labour in the past.

However I wouldn’t vote for them right now and don’t think I would vote Tory either.
However, bearing in mind that I live in the Borough of Doncaster my vote doesn’t really matter unless I did vote Labour and then it would just increase the number that they win by.
A vote for anyone else is immaterial.

[silent majority]

Hound, I'm afraid you're completely out of touch here. It's not just about having trains that go a bit faster, it's having a completely organised and integrated transit system that works. You have to experience it to really appreciate just how good and effective it is.

And it's not about the choice of excellent transport systems and health care either. Japan has an excellent system there as well, one where every resident is covered and the government picks up the lions share of the cost. Life expectancy in Japan is the highest in the world, proof that what they have is infinitely better than what we're doing in that regard.

[drfchound]

SM, it is my understanding that every working person in Japan has to pay medical insurance as well as 30% of any treatment that they may receive in the event of it being needed.
Could you imagine the fuss that would be made if that system was introduced here?

You are probably a regular user of train services so I can understand your position in supporting it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jesus, imagine living in that world where all anyone ever prioritises is their own immediate needs.

[silent majority]

SM, it is my understanding that every working person in Japan has to pay medical insurance as well as 30% of any treatment that they may receive in the event of it being needed.
Could you imagine the fuss that would be made if that system was introduced here?

You are probably a regular user of train services so I can understand your position in supporting it.

No, that's not right. 30% is the maximum, and that's what the insurance is for. Don't forget we pay National Insurance in the UK which is a considerable sum these days.

You're obviously not a well travelled person, therefore I'm sure it doesn't matter how many examples are put in front of you you won't see the benefits of doing things differently. But to suggest I'd support it because I travel by train a lot, which I don't by the way, is a ludicrous standpoint.

[drfchound]

SM, it is my understanding that every working person in Japan has to pay medical insurance as well as 30% of any treatment that they may receive in the event of it being needed.
Could you imagine the fuss that would be made if that system was introduced here?

You are probably a regular user of train services so I can understand your position in supporting it.

No, that's not right. 30% is the maximum, and that's what the insurance is for. Don't forget we pay National Insurance in the UK which is a considerable sum these days.

You're obviously not a well travelled person, therefore I'm sure it doesn't matter how many examples are put in front of you you won't see the benefits of doing things differently. But to suggest I'd support it because I travel by train a lot, which I don't by the way, is a ludicrous standpoint.

Also ludicrous is your very condescending suggestion that I am not well travelled seeing as how you don't know me.

Yes, we pay NI but the Japanese have to pay Medical Insurance which might also be quite expensive PLUS the people then have to also pay (up to) 30% of treatment costs.

[drfchound]

Jesus, imagine living in that world where all anyone ever prioritises is their own immediate needs.

Have I said anything about prioritising just my own needs.
I have written about the needs of everyone in the UK for further investment in the NHS.
We don’t need HS2.

[albie]

As nobody knows what the final bill for HS2 will be, you cannot show the project offers value for money on the CapEx against other transport expenditure bidding for challenge fund support.

This project could become another "Hinckley Point" white elephant.
Escalating costs, delay to completion, and twice as expensive in use as the cheapest alternative.

It is not sufficient to argue that the CapEx can be afforded.
There has to be an agreed rational way to allocate resources on CapEx projects, which allows comparison of alternatives.

[silent majority]

SM, it is my understanding that every working person in Japan has to pay medical insurance as well as 30% of any treatment that they may receive in the event of it being needed.
Could you imagine the fuss that would be made if that system was introduced here?

You are probably a regular user of train services so I can understand your position in supporting it.

No, that's not right. 30% is the maximum, and that's what the insurance is for. Don't forget we pay National Insurance in the UK which is a considerable sum these days.

You're obviously not a well travelled person, therefore I'm sure it doesn't matter how many examples are put in front of you you won't see the benefits of doing things differently. But to suggest I'd support it because I travel by train a lot, which I don't by the way, is a ludicrous standpoint.

Also ludicrous is your very condescending suggestion that I am not well travelled seeing as how you don't know me.

Yes, we pay NI but the Japanese have to pay Medical Insurance which might also be quite expensive PLUS the people then have to also pay (up to) 30% of treatment costs.

Condescending? I'm not the one arguing about something I have no experience or knowledge of. But it's quite clear you travel rarely judging by how you always rely on Wikipedia.

[drfchound]

SM, it is my understanding that every working person in Japan has to pay medical insurance as well as 30% of any treatment that they may receive in the event of it being needed.
Could you imagine the fuss that would be made if that system was introduced here?

You are probably a regular user of train services so I can understand your position in supporting it.

No, that's not right. 30% is the maximum, and that's what the insurance is for. Don't forget we pay National Insurance in the UK which is a considerable sum these days.

You're obviously not a well travelled person, therefore I'm sure it doesn't matter how many examples are put in front of you you won't see the benefits of doing things differently. But to suggest I'd support it because I travel by train a lot, which I don't by the way, is a ludicrous standpoint.

Also ludicrous is your very condescending suggestion that I am not well travelled seeing as how you don't know me.

Yes, we pay NI but the Japanese have to pay Medical Insurance which might also be quite expensive PLUS the people then have to also pay (up to) 30% of treatment costs.

Condescending? I'm not the one arguing about something I have no experience or knowledge of. But it's quite clear you travel rarely judging by how you always rely on Wikipedia.

Well I obviously do have some knowledge about it otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to put forward the information that I did. 

And yes, you were and still are being condescending with the last sentence that you wrote.

[silent majority]

What information is that? The stuff you lifted out of Wikipedia? Do me a favour!!

[drfchound]

What information is that? The stuff you lifted out of Wikipedia? Do me a favour!!

I see you are still at it then.

[silent majority]

At what? Stop being a clown.

[drfchound]

You have a very high perch.

[silent majority]

You have a very high perch.

Yep.

The Japanese have a very sophisticated, integrated transport system that works incredibly well. It keeps cars and lorries off the road, makes them a very efficient society and gets people around the country at incredible pace. You're arguing against that.

They have an extremely efficient health service that costs the individual very little yet ensures they have the highest life expectancy on the planet, you're arguing against that.

They are a polite society, the streets are spotless, the standard of living is exceptionally high, poverty and homelessness are virtually unheard of, and no doubt, if you could, you'd argue against that as well.

Now, you tell me who's being the difficult one here?

[Not Now Kato]

I'm currently on a Bullet train between Tokyo and Osaka. The infrastructure this country has is literally breathtaking, and it all works. We can only dream of having something similar as no government, or, it seems, people on this forum would want it.

If you were to experience it I'm sure you would all change your minds. The impact on quality of life would be immense.

I don't think a lot of us are against investments in our infrastructure SM, it's just looking to where those investments might be best placed for the benefit of the whole of the UK and IMO HS2 isn't it.  We need significant improvements of bot the rail and road networks East to West far more than shaving off a few minutes between Birmingham and London.  I can get from Doncaster to London far quicker with the infrastructure as it is today than I can from Doncaster to Liverpool, (which is nearer), for example.
 
I used to commute from Southport to Manchester by rail and it was a nightmare - old rolling stock, slow trains and unbelievable congestion.
 
My eldest Son travels from just outside Bolton to Manchester and it's an absolute nightmare - and he travels outside of peak times!  The M60 and M62 are no longer fit for purpose.
 
It's investment in the North for everyone here that's needed, not a few minutes quicker for businessmen into London!

[drfchound]

You have a very high perch.

Yep.

The Japanese have a very sophisticated, integrated transport system that works incredibly well. It keeps cars and lorries off the road, makes them a very efficient society and gets people around the country at incredible pace. You're arguing against that.

They have an extremely efficient health service that costs the individual very little yet ensures they have the highest life expectancy on the planet, you're arguing against that.

They are a polite society, the streets are spotless, the standard of living is exceptionally high, poverty and homelessness are virtually unheard of, and no doubt, if you could, you'd argue against that as well.

Now, you tell me who's being the difficult one here?

Point one.
Good for the Japs.
They can probably afford it, we can’t.
I’m couldn’t care less what they do over there and I am not arguing against it.
I am saying that we don’t need HS2 in the UK.



Point two.
Good for the Japs.
They can probably afford it.
Our NHS is on its knees and A&E depts are closing all over the place.
Money we are wasting on HS2 should be going to the NHS instead.
Are you arguing against that?



Point 3.
Far from arguing against point three I wish we could be the same but I would imagine ( I haven’t looked on wiki) that the authorities come down very hard in Japan on antisocial behaviour and crime.
Over here our courts don’t and we don’t have enough Police to control the criminals and hooligans.
Although, the government are investing in 20000 new Police Officers so maybe that will help.



Am I being difficult, no I don’t think so.

Neither have I called you a clown.


Now, are you going to have a pop at Not Now Kato for offering a different opinion to you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound
"Point two.
Good for the Japs.
They can probably afford it.
Our NHS is on its knees and A&E depts are closing all over the place.
Money we are wasting on HS2 should be going to the NHS instead.
Are you arguing against that?"

So we come back round again to this wrong headed argument.

[drfchound]

BST.
NO, the money should be going to the NHS instead of HS2.

I have noticed that you skipped over the post by NNK who also says that he doesn’t think we need HS2.
He says what I have said, that is that money should be spent on improving what we have got rather than blow untold billions on HS2.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

How many times?

There is no link between current spending and capital spending. Doesn't matter how many people say it. It's wrong.

[drfchound]

Hound.

How many times?

There is no link between current spending and capital spending. Doesn't matter how many people say it. It's wrong.

Oh, so it isn’t me alone that is saying it.
Everyone is wrong except for you then.

I notice you are still dodging NNK.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No Hound. It's just when people are wrong they are wrong. And I didn't see NNK's post. But I have pointed this issue out to you multiple times and you keep on repeating an opinion based on a false premise.

[drfchound]

Sorry BST, but I stand firm on my opinion.

We do not need HS2.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's a separate argument.

But that won't get you a penny extra for the NHS.

[drfchound]

Well, that is your opinion.......and as for not noticing the post by NNK, it is almost unheard of for you to bypass a post where someone has a different opinion to you on something like HS2.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.

Like I said yesterday, capital and current budgets over a period of time come from different sources.

You pay for capital investment (in an era of low interest rates) from borrowing and they pay that back several times over.

You can't pay for current budgets through borrowing for any significant length of time, as there's no payback, and all that you do is build an unsustainable and ever increasing debt. If you DO pay for current budgets through debt today, you have to pay that back by tightening budgets tomorrow. Or by growing the economy. Which needs capital investment.

As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

[Not Now Kato]

Hound.

How many times?

There is no link between current spending and capital spending. Doesn't matter how many people say it. It's wrong.

On this point I fully agree, and whilst you don't reference my post it's clear that's where your finger points.
 
But you seem to miss the point I made - It's not a case of what you spend, it's where it should be spent.  The North has been starved of serious investment while billions have been spent, (and continue to be spent), on London and the home counties. This is outside of any investment that should be being made in the NHS.  Maybe I didn't choose my words clearly enough.
 
I gave just a few examples of the issues in the North, but the same can be said about the South West and Wales.  It's the balance of the spend and the bias as to where it's spent  and to who's advantage that I criticise.  - Unless you believe there's an infinite budget, at which point we would disagree.
 
I firmly believe that there are greater priorities in UK infrastructure requirements than HS2.

[Not Now Kato]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

[BillyStubbsTears]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.