Parliament to be prorogued

[Glyn_Wigley]

Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?

What...you think all those Labour and LibDem MPs weren't voted for?

And as for only knowing what Boris is like for a few weeks...comedy gold!! All those years as London Mayor, MP and Foreign Secretary and you think nobody knows that he's a self-centred gobshite?

[Ldr]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

[bpoolrover]

Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?

What...you think all those Labour and LibDem MPs weren't voted for?

And as for only knowing what Boris is like for a few weeks...comedy gold!! All those years as London Mayor, MP and Foreign Secretary and you think nobody knows that he's a self-centred gobshite?

that’s not what I said I said to have a lab or Lib Dem pm was not voted for unless I’m mistaken there are around 12 Lib Dem mps yet might end up with one as pm

[IDM]

Boris wasn’t voted in as PM by the electorate either..

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

[Padge_DRFC]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

Ah yes half the leave vote with 2 options. Good tactics.

Are you employed? You seem to have hours and hours of spare time.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Not that I’m saying it’s right but did he have any option really, he knows that after a few weeks as pm they were going to call a no confidence vote against him and let’s be honest you can’t judge someone on a few weeks, if he had lost we would possibly have had a Labour or Lib Dem temporary leader, people at the last election didn’t vote for that either did they?

What...you think all those Labour and LibDem MPs weren't voted for?

And as for only knowing what Boris is like for a few weeks...comedy gold!! All those years as London Mayor, MP and Foreign Secretary and you think nobody knows that he's a self-centred gobshite?

that’s not what I said I said to have a lab or Lib Dem pm was not voted for unless I’m mistaken there are around 12 Lib Dem mps yet might end up with one as pm

Explain the Coalition then. Who voted for that?

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

Ah yes half the leave vote with 2 options. Good tactics.

Are you employed? You seem to have hours and hours of spare time.

Only it doesn't. If people really wanted to Leave we would.

[drfcsteve]

There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

Ah yes half the leave vote with 2 options. Good tactics.

Are you employed? You seem to have hours and hours of spare time.

It doesn't halve any votes. Read it again.

I can see there's a fatal flaw though if folk are unable to follow simple instructions.

And don't worry about my employment. I put in enough effort for several folk, trust me.

What will you be doing at 10pm tonight?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.

That's a well-established concept Steve, but it's more subtle than pride.

It's why clever propaganda works. You trick someone into believing something and, having bought into the lie, it's very, very tough to back down and tell yourself you were hoodwinked.

You see it here in spades. No one (and I mean NO-ONE) considered No Deal to be a realistic outcome back in 2016. Now, as it's been subtly normalised over the past year, there are loads of people saying "Well I voted for No Deal."

And when you point out how they have been hoodwinked and played, the response is to call you patronising.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ah if all else fails, those who voted leave are thick etc etc.

What a pathetic argument....

[Donnywolf]

I see some gutless f**ks in the Tory party are now deleting tweets they made a few months ago saying it would be outrageous if Parliament was prorogued.


https://mobile.twitter.com/_mattgibbo/status/1167142789882273793

1984 to come to their rescue ? They probably think it is 1984 esque. Reprint the Newspapers / get rid of the TV Progs and all traces of their "opinions" edicts and thoughts disappear and can be replaced by whatever they think is the current correct viewpoint

However its 2019 and THEY are all in My Room 101.

I think I will Tweet or retweet the clip every day for the rest of my life

[Herbert Anchovy]

Good call Glyn.

Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.

I get utterly fed up of people spouting that the Labour manifesto supported the result of the referendum - but ignoring what it actually says - as if that justifies the shitstorm of No Deal we're about to unleash.

Glyn

The Labour manifesto says very clearly that it accepts the result of the referendum, however it rejects no deal as a viable option. For the record this is a view I share. Now, how about you. Do you accept the result of the referendum? Or, are you being selective in your opinion of democracy and only wish to accept results that you agree with? That’s the impression you give.

[Herbert Anchovy]

There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.

That's a well-established concept Steve, but it's more subtle than pride.

It's why clever propaganda works. You trick someone into believing something and, having bought into the lie, it's very, very tough to back down and tell yourself you were hoodwinked.

You see it here in spades. No one (and I mean NO-ONE) considered No Deal to be a realistic outcome back in 2016. Now, as it's been subtly normalised over the past year, there are loads of people saying "Well I voted for No Deal."

And when you point out how they have been hoodwinked and played, the response is to call you patronising.

Yep, that’s right Billy. No leavers really knew what they were voting for. We were all conned. Patronising at best, insulting at worst.

[Donnywolf]

Ah if all else fails, those who voted leave are thick etc etc.

What a pathetic argument....

I know several (probably hundreds of) people who Voted Leave and I would not call any of them "thick" neither would I call the one who Voted Remain as "thick" nor assign any other adjectives to them

The whole problem with the whole mess (and it IS a mess) is that the vote was just too devisive Even though Politicians call it an overwhelmig majority it was lets face it not much better than 50 / 50 and I blame Cameron for :

a) caving in to the element who wanted a Referendum

b) for not ACTIVELY campaigning FOR remaining rather than thinking Remain would walk it and

c) for not saying the vote had to be at least 60 % to mak a change to the status quo

[Herbert Anchovy]

Ah if all else fails, those who voted leave are thick etc etc.

What a pathetic argument....

I know several (probably hundreds of) people who Voted Leave and I would not call any of them "thick" neither would I call the one who Voted Remain as "thick" nor assign any other adjectives to them

The whole problem with the whole mess (and it IS a mess) is that the vote was just too devisive Even though Politicians call it an overwhelmig majority it was lets face it not much better than 50 / 50 and I blame Cameron for :

a) caving in to the element who wanted a Referendum

b) for not ACTIVELY campaigning FOR remaining rather than thinking Remain would walk it and

c) for not saying the vote had to be at least 60 % to mak a change to the status quo

You’re right Wolf. As someone has pointed out before (Billy ST?) From the off it was nothing about leaving the EU but more to do with Cameron finally silencing the anti EU members of his party.

[SydneyRover]

What leavers didn't know but should have guessed was that the tories would use every conceivable lever to screw them and everyone else over in their moral and scruple free zone

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is only one reason why anyone that voted leave still thinks it's a good idea, and that is that they are too proud to admit that they've let a bunch of rich arseholes take them for a ride.

That's a well-established concept Steve, but it's more subtle than pride.

It's why clever propaganda works. You trick someone into believing something and, having bought into the lie, it's very, very tough to back down and tell yourself you were hoodwinked.

You see it here in spades. No one (and I mean NO-ONE) considered No Deal to be a realistic outcome back in 2016. Now, as it's been subtly normalised over the past year, there are loads of people saying "Well I voted for No Deal."

And when you point out how they have been hoodwinked and played, the response is to call you patronising.

Yep, that’s right Billy. No leavers really knew what they were voting for. We were all conned. Patronising at best, insulting at worst.

HA

Doesn't help when you set up straw men like this. I have NEVER either thought or said that all Leave supporters were conned.

What I HAVE said is that Farage deliberately set out to con people. He pushed the idea of a Norway deal then flipped and said that would be a betrayal. Cummings made the whole Vote Leave campaign about conning people. He's said it himself. That's why he spent several million quid on profiling voters who were not politically savvy but we're anti-immigrant, then pumped literally hundreds of millions of adverts into their social media telling them 80 million Turks were about to get the right to move in next door.

Back to the point I was making. You will not find a single example of a leading Leave campaigner in 2016 telling voters that a Leave vote was a vote for No Deal. But now they are saying that's what we should aim for.

Agreed?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP. That one is for you too. Better to argue on the basis of what people actually say, not what you want them to have said.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Good call Glyn.

Labour's manifesto said that they respected the result of the Referendum. That results was never ever a mandate for a No Deal Brexit.

I get utterly fed up of people spouting that the Labour manifesto supported the result of the referendum - but ignoring what it actually says - as if that justifies the shitstorm of No Deal we're about to unleash.

Glyn

The Labour manifesto says very clearly that it accepts the result of the referendum, however it rejects no deal as a viable option. For the record this is a view I share. Now, how about you. Do you accept the result of the referendum? Or, are you being selective in your opinion of democracy and only wish to accept results that you agree with? That’s the impression you give.

I have said several times that I accept the result but that I still reserve the right to think that it is the single stupidest thing the British Public has ever done. Knowing that whatever version of Leave is going to damage the British economy then if we have to Leave we should do it the least damaging way possible. That's why when the details of HOW we're leaving are known it should be put to the public again for confirmation that that is exactly what they want.

[scawsby steve]

If the Scottish judge had ruled in favour of the injunction today, we'd never have heard the last of it on here. The sneering would have been deafening.

How dare any of that rabble in Westminster accuse anyone of being undemocratic after the constant blocking, diverting, bullying and conning of the last 3 years.

17.4 million; the biggest vote ever in British political history. Think about it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

By "that rabble" I assume you mean our current PM, Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary? All three of them voted down May's deal last winter. We'd be out now if they hadn't done.

[IDM]

Biggest vote?  In that case the vote to remain must have been one of the biggest too as the majority was small.!!

[Donnywolf]

If the Scottish judge had ruled in favour of the injunction today, we'd never have heard the last of it on here. The sneering would have been deafening.

How dare any of that rabble in Westminster accuse anyone of being undemocratic after the constant blocking, diverting, bullying and conning of the last 3 years.

17.4 million; the biggest vote ever in British political history. Think about it.

... and here is the 1975 Result with the second biggest ever vote etc ...

Yes (remain in EU)         17,378,581    67.23 %
No    ( Leave EEC / EU)   8,470,073    32.77 %

So only 22000 votes less to Remain in EEC/EU than to leave in 2016 and it produced a majority of 34.5 %

The 17.4 mill in 2016 produced only a majority of 4 %

Tory MPs have constantly disrespected the 1975 result even with its majority of 2 to 1 but then ask other MPs now to uphold the will of the british people and respect democracy while they did not give a s**t about a majority 8 times bigger

Think about it

[albie]

Wolf,

You have to think about those who did not vote as well.

Abstention is a valid choice if you don't think you know enough about the issue to make a choice.
Since Ref1 some of those will have formed an opinion......others may have changed their position.

Since the advisory Ref1, a new government has been elected.

Deliberative democracy like referendums are not defined in the UK, unlike in Sweden.
Representative democracy like a GE elects a HoC to interpret actions on behalf of the electorate.

The 2 types of democracy can deliver contradictory outcomes, as now.
So the UK needs to set out how the different processes interact.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Do you really think that there is a significant proportion of the electorate that decides not to vote as a positive choice, rather than through disconnection? I know that's a touchstone of the Left that there's a side franchised groundswell looking for something to believe in, but is there any evidence of that?

There IS however, a large number of people who didn't vote in 2016 and who would vote overwhelmingly for Remain in any Ref2. It's people between the ages of 18-21.

[bpoolrover]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?

[tommy toes]

Yes Blackpool why not?
Let's vote to be:

A) hung
B) hung, drawn and quartered.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?

BST would need a 2 question referendum. Q1 binary leave or remain. Q2 if leave what is preferred

No. Just a single transferrable vote.

A) No Deal
B) Whatever deal the Govt could negotiate.
C) Remain.

Put a 1 by your first preference and 2 by your second.

Count up all the 1s. Eliminate the option with fewest votes.

Redistribute all the 2s from those ballots and you have a specific outcome with majority support.

Add more options and more rounds if you want.

why not just have no deal and whatever the government can come up with? There is no need for remain to be on it, as you say labour said they will accept the result?

It's not a rerun of the first referendum, it's a whole new one. And there is need for remain on it. Not all Tories are Leavers, not all Labour are Leavers, not all the voters for other parties are Leavers either. The whole point is that you're not asking the question to the parties but the voters. Otherwise, let's have a General Election and if a party has Remain in it's manifesto and wins the election, I'm sure you'd be overjoyed if they then remained without a referendum.