Parliament to be prorogued

[wilts rover]

May's deal was rejected because it was considered a bad one. Do you honestly think Corbyn Monoxide would have supported ANY deal May struck?

Yes quite clearly. In 2017-18 he would have supported a CU/SM deal. In the talks early this year he would have supported  the same provided it went to a referendum.

None of these at any time would have been acceptable to the ERG which is why they were never offered by May. And why Johnson wont get a deal that is acceptable to them.

It's not Remainers or Corbyn that have stopped May's deal going through but the ERG & DUP.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB

You talk about the country uniting behind Brexit. How were the disparate parts of the country supposed to unite when everyone but the Right of the Tory party were hoyed out of having any input into the debate on what Brexit meant.

I've told you that I would have accepted a Norway-type Brexit. You told me you didn't believe me.

And then you whine about the way you get responded to in here...

I've never said the Tories were completely blameless, but I can see where they were coming from if they regarded Corbyn's intellect to be more of a hindrance than a benefit.

And no, I don't believe you'd have accepted a Norway type Brexit because if it was up to you the referendum result wouldn't have stood and all Brexiters would have been locked up!

......Oh, and how dare you accuse ME of whining! You've whined, constantly every day for God knows how long. If there's one thing I'm truly thankful of it is the response I get from you and your cronies. It confirms I'm not one of them, thank Christ.

[SydneyRover]

How many ways can you say "the vote wasn't binding"

[BillyStubbsTears]

That first paragraph. Then you bore on about unity.

That second paragraph. Zero point in talking then if you assume I'm lying when I don't match the bogeyman you want me to be.

Enough. Finished. You're an attention black hole like a needy child and I'm done.

[Bentley Bullet]

Certain people you can't get unity from. I believe Corbyn is one of them.

Finished? Really? Thank f**k for that.

At least a child isn't expected to be grown up, what's your excuse?

[bpoolrover]

See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?

[SydneyRover]

You're way funnier than bb at times bp.

[wilts rover]

Certain people you can't get unity from. I believe Corbyn is one of them.

Then how do you explain the cross-party discussions he led last week? Which ended in unanimous agreement.

[Bentley Bullet]

Maybe he talked sense for a  change?

[Padge_DRFC]

Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.

[BillyStubbsTears]

See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?

Bpool.

I've been to one in Sheffield.

Pretty much every speaker said this was way bigger than Brexit. It's about the principle of Parliamentary democracy.

I would be appalled, and would demonstrate against it if someone tried to pull this sort of stunt to force through a Remain outcome. If you just "meh" to this, you either don't grasp the ramifications or you're really not interested in democracy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.

And you know that because...?

[wilts rover]

See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?

For me it's that Johnson has suspended parliament. He has always said that he want's a deal - well he has to get that deal through parliament and he wont achieve that if parliament isn't sitting.

Which means if he does get a new deal we wont be leaving on 31st October - there is no way (even if the HoC sits continuously though the night and every weekend) that they can pass the legislation required in time.

What would you prefer? That Johnson is right, he can get a new deal and we don't leave the EU on 31st October. Or that he is wrong and we crash out with No Deal on 31st October.

[Bentley Bullet]

Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.

[wilts rover]

Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.

Then I will ask you the same question Padge.

Because Johnson has prorogued parliament there is no way we can leave on 31st October with a deal.

What would you prefer? He is right and we don't leave on 31st October. Or he is wrong and we do leave on 31st October.

[SydneyRover]

I don't think they're interested in common sense at all Wilks

[BillyStubbsTears]

Excellent article about Cummings and his role in this,today.

https://unherd.com/2019/08/dominic-cummings-is-no-chicken/

That's from someone who knows him well, pretty much confirming what I'd pieced together about Cummings. He's fearsomely intelligent, but naively unaware of his own limitations. Give people like that power and it's about as dangerous as you can get. I know that because I used to work for someone very much like that. He played outside the rules, and was too frighteningly sharp to challenge. Which was great when it worked. Then he got something badly wrong and he made a catastrophic mistake that contributed to a lot of people dying. So this kind of situation is seared onto my very existence.

You HAVE to have checks to hold back those who think they are above the rules. That's why I'm terrified by this concept of suspending Parliament. Parliament's job is precisely to put the brakes on and check the consequences of radical ideas.

Back to that article. The author says Cummings is obsessed with game theory. There's a variant of the game of chicken. Two cars driving towards each other. The first one to veer off loses. Game theory says the way you are absolutely certain of winning is by removing your steering wheel and chucking it out the window in a way that the other driver can see it. Then the other driver knows if he doesn't veer off, you're both dead.

The author says that's what Cummings is doing by stopping Parliament from blocking No Deal. He's saying to the EU, "You blink because we're now not able to".

Padge. Listen up now. This is the important but that's obvious to anyone who thinks about the believability of the threat of No Deal.

As the author says, that's ok if both cars are the same size and the risk is equal. What happens if one driver is in a Fiat 500 and the other is in a big f**k off truck? There's less incentive for the truck driver to veer off,because he won't be that badly hurt.

And THAT is the point that some of us have been making for months, and the Leave death cultists here ignore.

British threatening No Deal is not remotely credible because it will hurt us FAR more than it will hurt the EU.

But the problem is, you e now got a fanatic in Cummings, trying to ram it through because he's certain his Game Theory for Dummies understanding is political genius. And to ram it through, he's suspending Parliament.

And you lot on the Leave side are so obsessed with winning at all costs that all this is fine, right?

[SydneyRover]

A metaphor for brexiter's arguments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VuMdLm0ccU

[bpoolrover]

See there are protests today organised by stop brexit, are people bothered that boris has suspended parliament or the fact he is using it to get brexit thru?

Bpool.

I've been to one in Sheffield.

Pretty much every speaker said this was way bigger than Brexit. It's about the principle of Parliamentary democracy.

I would be appalled, and would demonstrate against it if someone tried to pull this sort of stunt to force through a Remain outcome. If you just "meh" to this, you either don't grasp the ramifications or you're really not interested in democracy.

I was just asking a question as most I have spoke to have really only mentioned him using it to get brexit thru and wondered if this was what most people thought

[BillyStubbsTears]

He's using it to get a specific form of Brexit through, that wasn't on the agenda in 2016,that has never commanded anything like a majority in opinion polls.

Parliament has a responsibility to stop that. Johnson and Cummings have suspended Parliament to block that.

It is the biggest democratic outrage in 350 years. If you don't get that, I fear for the future, because any future PM can bypass Parliament. And that's called a dictatorship.

[IDM]

Today's protests are to stop Brexit. Nothing else. None of them believe in democracy.
Take no deal away as an option you weaken our negotiation position. Basic stuff.

I thought they were to stop a no deal Brexit, or at least to allow Parliament to do so.. not to stop Brexit itself.

There is a big difference..

[albie]

Albie.

Do you really think that there is a significant proportion of the electorate that decides not to vote as a positive choice, rather than through disconnection? I know that's a touchstone of the Left that there's a side franchised groundswell looking for something to believe in, but is there any evidence of that?

There IS however, a large number of people who didn't vote in 2016 and who would vote overwhelmingly for Remain in any Ref2. It's people between the ages of 18-21.

BST,

I don't know how many chose not to vote, and their reasons.
Neither do you, or anybody else!
That is the point.

Evidence of a cohort looking for a rationale?
I would say the Brexit Party (and Ukip before), fits that bill very well.

Happy to help the confused, that's me!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Strange that you exhort DW to think about those who didn't vote as a deli state conscious choice.

What are we supposed to think about them and what are we supposed to do about them?

[albie]

Billy,

The point I was making to DW was that people are allowed to change their mind.....it is central to a democracy.

So if some have changed, or made their mind up on the issue, then it is good if they can say so!
You think that should be through Ref2....I think a GE does the job.

Do about them?
Engage with their concerns constructively!

I agree with your point about the youth coming on to the electoral register.
Why they should be in hock to the codgers who have passed is a mystery!

[IDM]

Today I took £30 out of the cashpoint.

I only wanted cash.  I didn’t want a printed balance or cancel (1 check) nor did I want an on screen balance or cancel (2 checks) nor did I want a receipt or cancel (3 checks).

Three checks and opportunities to change my mind..

For thirty f**king quid..

[bpoolrover]

Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?

[bobjimwilly]

Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?

yes, why not. if it's theres a potential majority for something that needs changing that can't be agreed on in parliament, I'm all for referendums.

Hence we need a referendum that actually mentions no deal and asks the people if we want it, because it's clear the majority don't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

We've been round this one a dozen times.


One vote.


Have a vote with real options for Leave now we know what they mean.

Single transferrable vote like I said on Friday and a dozen times previously.


Ban all foreign funding with a 10 year prison sentence for anyone who breaks that..

Then implement the result.

What could possibly be more democratic?

If you want The People to decide, it has to be clear, fair and unambiguous.

[hoolahoop]

The BB Argument Cycle

1) BB says something that's wrong.
2) Someone points out he's wrong.
3) BB responds with a smart arse response, usually based on syntax, and claims he was right after all, ha-ha-ha.
4) Someone tells him to grow up.
5) BB complains about people being patronising.
6) Someone else explains the original mistake patiently.
7) BB complains about cliques and disciples.
8) Everyone else silently facepalms.
9) Go to 1.

It'll be a lot more efficient in future when 1) happens if we just take 2-9) as read and move straight on to the next 1).

No BST, I'm not wrong, and when I prove I'm not wrong you respond with obscenities in the form of personal insults instead of an answer.

In your tiny world of self-righteousness, there's no room for anybody who disagrees with you. You pick fault with anything and everything you can find if someone posts something that goes against your views as if in a state of anger because it defies your infinite wisdom.

 On the other hand, you defend fellow Remoaners, and completely ignore them when they are totally wrong. Mind you, in your defence, I suppose you haven't really got that many followers to fall out with.

BB -
As someone who " supposedly " voted Remain but ever since June 23rd 2016 has done nothing else than slag off " Remoaners " at which time of that morning did your full conversion happen ?

YOU see I can easily understand a gradual realisation that perhaps you thought that
' the vote to Leave should be honoured ' or perhaps on balance you ' should have voted to Leave ' ; what I have never understood is your FULL ON  Euroscepticism. A veritable Damascene conversion if there ever was one - overnight , complete and possibly more wedded to the cult than even the most honest Eurosceptic on here.

Or and I hate to think of you this way - were  you a cuckoo in the Remainer ( or is that Remoaner ) nest ?
Perhaps and even worse somehow , you just didn't want , like the rest of us , to end up on the losing side. This whole episode will set our country back decades in social and moral terms and cost possibly.. £ Trillions.

When is the " UP " for our 'United' Kingdom ever likely to appear now that we have divided our people and set them one against the other seemingly against our closest oìòneighbours that we had begun to live in harmony with.
We would risk our jobs, living & health standards, precious union, safety, security, environment and even our most precious NHS on this bonfire of vanities . Where/ when is there to be a benefit  ? 

[Donnywolf]

Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?

... and I would say we have had 2 already. One in 1975 that was convincingly won - Majority to REMAIN just over 33% . Disrespected by Tory MPs and others who kept on crowing till they got a second Referendum in 2016

... and in 2016 having got their way the people said "LEAVE" with a majority of 3 to 4 % (8 times less than 1975)

So I will repeat to my dying day - if a gang of Tory MPs can demand and eventually get a Second Referendum and kill a 33% Majority why cant the minority (48%) on the wrong side do exactly the same thing ?